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Author Topic:   How can theists believe in Darwinian evolution?
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 106 of 125 (568409)
07-05-2010 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Bolder-dash
07-05-2010 10:15 AM


Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
Hi, Bolder-dash.
I am sort of a theistic evolutionist. Less so each day, though, I think.
Bolder-dash writes:
I don't have such a problem understanding how people can have faith that their beliefs are correct as much as I do trying to figure out what the heck those beliefs are.
Most people also have a hard time figuring out what the heck their own beliefs are, so it shouldn’t surprise you that you can’t figure them out either.
For instance, what, exactly, is a soul?
I haven’t a clue what a soul is. But, I’m still a Christian.
-----
Bolder-dash writes:
And what would Genesis be allegorical of? Of the randomness of molecules colliding, or grains of silica replicating imperfectly?
Of man’s dependency on God, of course. (For, surely, man is still dependent on God to get to Heaven, right?)
Of the importance of obedience to God’s commands. (For, surely, this is the behavior that God asks of us, right?)
Of the power of God to save or destroy man at His whim. (For, surely, He can destroy or save us, right?)
Wouldn’t you agree that Genesis 1-11 gets these points across reasonably well?
-----
Bolder-dash writes:
...I need to hear more from people who actually do believe in a God, while at the same time believing that we ended here by accident...
I think you’ll find that this statement shoehorns theistic evolutionists into a stereotypical belief that essentially none of us accepts as credible.
For instance, you are stuck in this idea that believing in evolution means believing in accidents.
Most theistic evolutionists do not believe that all the history of life and evolution was accidental. They believe that much of it was, but not all of it.
As a more agnostically-minded theist, I don’t actually believe this, per se, but I am perfectly happy to leave room for the possibility that not everything in the history of the universe was an accident.
-----
Bolder-dash writes:
Whoa whoa, its an orderly world, that was certain to produce humans, by use of a completely unguided, uncontrolled process which has no direction, no design, no designer, and has no certainty of anything? Huh? This is what some people believe? And they want to call creationists crazy?
Wow!
I’m mildly interested in a type of scientific fiction called alternate history, in which an author changes one event in history, and writes about how the fictional history diverges from the real history as a result of the one change that was made.
This is the concept behind the type of theistic evolution NWR was talking about. Since God is omniscient, He should be able to know what will happen if He changes just one thing in history. And, He should be able to do this an infinite amount of times, such that He can manipulate the initial conditions of the universe to cause history to play out in exactly the way He wants it to.
What’s so hard to understand about this?
Don’t you believe God could have done this?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-05-2010 10:15 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by GDR, posted 07-17-2010 9:37 PM Blue Jay has not replied
 Message 111 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-17-2010 10:02 PM Blue Jay has not replied
 Message 120 by Pauline, posted 08-29-2010 11:37 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 125 (568775)
07-17-2010 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Flyer75
07-04-2010 5:28 PM


Huh?
I have no idea what "I would ask you Jar, from one Christian to another, where do you place Scriptural revelation (God's word to us) with natural revelation? " even means or what it could possibly have to do with Evolution or the Theory of Evolution?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 108 of 125 (568795)
07-17-2010 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Flyer75
07-04-2010 6:34 PM


Re: bolder's litmus test
Flyer75 writes:
Theo, then you've misread what I've been saying. My whole point, and i just said this in my last post but I'll spell it out again, is how can one claim to believe that Christ resurrected from the dead, or any of the "history" of the Bible, yet relegate Gen 1-11 to mythology or allegory????
This post is as far as I have read in this thread but I did want to reply to you. You had earlier referred to the "great C S Lewis" and so I wanted to give you a quote from him that answers your question.
quote:
Just as, on the factual side, a long preparation culminates in God’s becoming incarnate as Man, so, on the documentary side, the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History. This involves the belief that Myth is ... a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. The Hebrews, like other peoples, had mythology: but as they were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology — the mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truths, the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where truth has become completely historical.
Miracles Ch 15 CS Lewis

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 109 of 125 (568799)
07-17-2010 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Blue Jay
07-05-2010 5:43 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
Bluejay writes:
For instance, what, exactly, is a soul?
I haven’t a clue what a soul is. But, I’m still a Christian
Great question. I've pondered that for a long time and I have come to the conclusion that the soul is really just who I am, with all my conscious strengths and weaknesses, my personality and my emotions.
The older I get the greater sense I have of the concept that I'm not aging at all but my body sure is.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by nwr, posted 07-17-2010 9:49 PM GDR has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 110 of 125 (568802)
07-17-2010 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by GDR
07-17-2010 9:37 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
GDR writes:
I've pondered that for a long time and I have come to the conclusion that the soul is really just who I am, with all my conscious strengths and weaknesses, my personality and my emotions.
Yes, I think that's right. I would say that makes it a kind of metaphor.
GDR writes:
The older I get the greater sense I have of the concept that I'm not aging at all but my body sure is.
The way I have commented on that, is that I stay about the same but the students get younger every year.

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 Message 109 by GDR, posted 07-17-2010 9:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 111 of 125 (568809)
07-17-2010 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Blue Jay
07-05-2010 5:43 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
For instance, you are stuck in this idea that believing in evolution means believing in accidents.
Most theistic evolutionists do not believe that all the history of life and evolution was accidental. They believe that much of it was, but not all of it.
As a non-fundamental theist, one can have a wide range of beliefs; i.e. believe that a supernatural and omniscient being (i.e. God) set the universe in motion with fundamental laws of physics and allowed things things to develop on their own. The natural phenomena that developed from these physical laws (i.e. biological evolution) could have been part of God's overall plan as a product of the tinkering that he did at the beginning of time.
Myself, I have no problem with the above on a moral basis even if I don't see evidence for it (I am an agnostic). What I do have a problem with is the Christian concepts of rewarding or damning billions of human beings to eternity in heaven and hell as a result of human behavior that God pre-programed and foreknew. To me that is morally repugnant and morally/religiously inconsistent and hypocritical.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

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 Message 106 by Blue Jay, posted 07-05-2010 5:43 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by GDR, posted 07-17-2010 10:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 116 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 6:01 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 112 of 125 (568811)
07-17-2010 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by nwr
07-17-2010 9:49 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
nwr writes:
The way I have commented on that, is that I stay about the same but the students get younger every year.
This does give me a sense though that "I" is not just the physical me.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 113 of 125 (568815)
07-17-2010 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by DevilsAdvocate
07-17-2010 10:02 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
What I do have a problem with is the Christian concepts of rewarding or damning billions of human beings to eternity in heaven and hell as a result of human behavior that God pre-programed and foreknew. To me that is morally repugnant and morally/religiously inconsistent and hypocritical.
I agree with all of that except that I don't believe that you have written accurately described Christian belief. At least it certainly doesn't fit what I believe. I suggest that if you are really interested there is a very good book by Timothy Keller called "The Reason for God" that would give you a much better understanding of, what I would consider to be", normative traditional Christianity. N T Wright is also another very good source.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-17-2010 10:02 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-17-2010 10:40 PM GDR has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 114 of 125 (568820)
07-17-2010 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by GDR
07-17-2010 10:31 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
GDR writes:
agree with all of that except that I don't believe that you have written accurately described Christian belief. At least it certainly doesn't fit what I believe. I suggest that if you are really interested there is a very good book by Timothy Keller called "The Reason for God" that would give you a much better understanding of, what I would consider to be", normative traditional Christianity. N T Wright is also another very good source.
Thanks. I have a whole library of Christian apologetics books (was a Christian for over 25 years) but will take a look at it.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 125 (577411)
08-28-2010 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bolder-dash
07-04-2010 1:02 AM


There are people who proclaim themselves to be Christian, or holding other similar faiths, who believe 100% in Darwinian evolution
you cannot be christian and believe in evolution. the two ideas are contradictory and holding to the latter demonstrates that you do not believe the God you say you do.
it shows you will only accept the Bible and the christian faith when it is something you like or benefit from while dismissing those parts that cause you difficulty.

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Replies to this message:
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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 125 (577412)
08-28-2010 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by DevilsAdvocate
07-17-2010 10:02 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
What I do have a problem with is the Christian concepts of rewarding or damning billions of human beings to eternity in heaven and hell as a result of human behavior that God pre-programed and foreknew. To me that is morally repugnant and morally/religiously inconsistent and hypocritical.
you probably were punished for being bad as a child, disobedience. you probably punish your children for being disobedient, if you have any. so why can't God punish those He created for being disobedient?
the same goes for rewarding the obedient.
God did not pre-program anyone, that would deny what He said in the Bible and make it impossible to obey this verse:
'choose ye this day whom ye will serve...'
obviously God did not pre-program, but has allowed each person to choose what/who they will follow--Him or the devil.
to say that God pre-programed people then told them to choose would imply that God was sadistic when He is not.

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 117 of 125 (577413)
08-28-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 6:01 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
you probably were punished for being bad as a child, disobedience. you probably punish your children for being disobedient, if you have any. so why can't God punish those He created for being disobedient?
I doubt any of the parents on this board ever consigned their children to a realm of eternal torment for being disobedient. The punishment should fit the crime, no?
God did not pre-program anyone
Sure He did. According to the Bible, anyway. But, you're a pick-and-choose Christian so you just ignore those parts.

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 Message 116 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 6:01 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 125 (577415)
08-28-2010 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 5:56 PM


archaeologist writes:
you cannot be christian and believe in evolution.
Yet another false statement from you. The vast majority of Christians understand that Evolution is a fact and that the Theory of Evolution is not just the best explanation for the diversity we see around us, it is the only model out there.
archaeologist writes:
it shows you will only accept the Bible and the christian faith when it is something you like or benefit from while dismissing those parts that cause you difficulty.
Yet another false statement from you and one that like all your others, you simply have not supported.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by archaeologist, posted 08-28-2010 5:56 PM archaeologist has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 119 of 125 (577636)
08-29-2010 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by archaeologist
08-28-2010 5:56 PM


archaeologist writes:
you cannot be christian and believe in evolution. the two ideas are contradictory and holding to the latter demonstrates that you do not believe the God you say you do.
it shows you will only accept the Bible and the christian faith when it is something you like or benefit from while dismissing those parts that cause you difficulty.
So B.B. Warfield was not Christian?? C.S. Lewis was not Christian?? Francis Collins is not Christian?? Alister McGrath is not Christian??

This message is a reply to:
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Pauline
Member (Idle past 3736 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 120 of 125 (577661)
08-29-2010 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Blue Jay
07-05-2010 5:43 PM


Re: Will the real theist evolution please stand up?
Some of the statements made on this site by the so called theistic evolutionists are nothing short or expressions of a confused mentality. This for example,
bluejay writes:
Hi, Bolder-dash.
I am sort of a theistic evolutionist. Less so each day, though, I think.
I assume you profess to be a Christian. There is nothing in the Gospel that allows for "less so each day" faith. Unless you fit it into your personal version (like our friend Jar does) to "make it work" for your purposes. Faith is either/or, yes/no, black/white, hot/cold. When you step out of either extreme and into the middle-ground you are nothing more or nothing less than a seeker of the faith, not a follower. A follower who has once committed to faith will follow until the end - this is what the Bible teaches. If the follower is slowly going away from the faith, then he/she must be either backsliding or not saved in the first place. The Gospel leaves no room for astute analysis or stringent scrutiny - simply because salvation is not by works/reason/human effort. It is by faith. Either you believe God saved you or don't. There is nothing you- Bluejay can analyze or scrutinize in that. I'm not saying - don't analyze or reason through the Bible, no. I'm saying - the salvation/faith part is independent of your analysis/scrutiny.reason. Which, totally destroys your idea of "lesser a Christian each day" That's like saying "I'm disbelieving Chtist/the Gospel more each day" - which inturn implies that you THINK salvation is by YOUR work. False. Biblically, that is.
Then again...
For instance, what, exactly, is a soul?
I haven’t a clue what a soul is. But, I’m still a Christian.
I won't pretend like I can give you a scientific definition of a soul. But it is a shame, that as a Christian- you resort to withholding your exercise of faith. The Bible surely doesn't talk about God saving souls while no even defining a soul? If the Bible is where your faith is rooted in, why these discrepancies? It probably don't make you any less or more of a Christian if you have doubts- but these are more than just doubts.
As a more agnostically-minded theist,
What is THAT supposed to mean?
On the main topic, I share the view that a Bible believing, practicing Christian cannot also claim to be so while claiming to be an evolutionist. Unless of course - he/she "customizes" Christianity for selfish reasons., like many of our EvC friends readily and blissfully do. In that case, sadly ignorantly they strip themselves of all the dignity that goes with being called a follower of God. They become people who acknowledge the truth yet fail to embrace it as it is. It costs too much.
Edited by Pauline, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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