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Junior Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 30 From: IN, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Hello | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Oh... yeah, I didn't get that either.
But, c'mon... Its Moose!
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Practical Prodigy Junior Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 30 From: IN, USA Joined: |
Since you reject speciation by evolution, where do all the species come from, especially all the new species that have arisen throughout the history of the Earth ? Actually that depends on your definition of species, which varies and means different things depending on its use and context in biology.
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Practical Prodigy Junior Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 30 From: IN, USA Joined: |
Yeah, that's not how we do things around here. If you'd like to discuss the evidence for the evolution of that stuff, pick one (yes, just one) subject and propose a new thread. Nobody is going to tackle all of that at once. Well when asked a question I'll post why I have said position, was not attempting to have to delve this deep into my beliefs in an introductory thread, LOL.
Like? Unexplained Phenomena: The Placebo EffectThe Sixth Sense Near Death Experience UFO's/USO's - Unidentified Flying/Submerged Objects Dj Vu (Memory illusion) The Big Bang (Origin of the Universe) Singularity Mammatus Clouds Non-aqueous Rain St Elmo’s Fire Ghosts Spontaneous Human Combustion Unexplained Disappearances Bermuda Triangle The Hum Psychic Phenomena (esp, remote viewing, telepathy, clairvoyance or telekinesis) Naga Fireballs Blue Jets and Red Sprites Earthquake Lights Relationship between brain and body Capacity (psychic and spiritual) Electronic Voice Phenomenon The Sirius Mystery (as well as other ancient cosmology knowledge not visible from Earth) Tunguska Explosion Charles E. Peck (Chatsworth crash) Would you like me to go on?
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Practical Prodigy Junior Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 30 From: IN, USA Joined: |
A lot? Like what, in general in your own words? Just one. I posted in my own word below excerpt I posted.
Its always a good ideo to provide links when you quote outside material. I found the article here: The mutation matrix and the evolution of evolvability - PubMed Sorry meant to do that totally forgot until you reminded me, wont happen again
I didn't quite get that from the article. Can you explain in your own words how the article says that? What is the limit? How is it based on genetic information available? The limit imposed on evolvabilty is the variance of mutations. Mutations do not add new genetic information just recombine genetic material in a varied fashion. This does not explain how genetic information will mutate in the exact set of genes to allow a new complex expression. In other words, the convergence of abundant variation occuring at same time and strong selection influences. This happens when a single gene influences multiple phenotypic traits. A new mutation in the gene may have an effect on some or all traits simultaneously. This can become a problem when selection on one trait favors one specific version of the gene (allele), while the selection on the other trait favors another allele. Hope I covered what you meant and didnt go off on a tangent ;P
Well I'm not going to go through all those here. Some of them can be explained, some of them I don't know about. But a currently unexplained phenomenon doesn't falsify the theory, nor is any of those showing how a bunch of micros are prevented from being a macro. Perhaps in another thread then. These are the adaptations I could not find any non-theoritical explaination for. But like I said I'll makes another thread soon and show you how little is known about these adaptations.
Like what? In above post, but I'll repost so its clear : Unexplained Phenomena: The Placebo EffectThe Sixth Sense Near Death Experience UFO's/USO's - Unidentified Flying/Submerged Objects Dj Vu (Memory illusion) The Big Bang (Origin of the Universe) Singularity Mammatus Clouds Non-aqueous Rain St Elmo’s Fire Ghosts Spontaneous Human Combustion Unexplained Disappearances Bermuda Triangle The Hum Psychic Phenomena (esp, remote viewing, telepathy, clairvoyance or telekinesis) Naga Fireballs Blue Jets and Red Sprites Earthquake Lights Relationship between brain and body Capacity (psychic and spiritual) Electronic Voice Phenomenon The Sirius Mystery (as well as other ancient cosmology knowledge not visible from Earth) Tunguska Explosion Charles E. Peck (Chatsworth crash) Sure, but even the Theory of Evolution does not say that god has nothing to do with it. I guess that is one way of looking at it, but I think a vast majority of naturalist evolutionists would beg to differ for some reason on that one ;P
How so? I explained this due to its focus on observable processes, focus on theories and hypothesis, etc. Cant make it much clearer than that read my other posts.
Well I haven't seen any of it. Thats like saying since you cant see Andromeda that it doesnt exist. I dont understand how thats a reply to my post.
Supernatural implies that there can never be a scientific explanation while paranormal allows for one to be discovered in the future. Thats a semantic position, not a logical one. They mean the exact same thing maybe try looking up their proper definitions or would you like me to post them here?
Philisophical Naturalism is an idea. It deals with ontology, what exists and what doesn't. Methodological Naturalism is a process. It deals with epistemology, how can we acquire knowledge about the world. They are not the same thing. Applying Methodological Naturalism is not assuming Philisophical Naturalism. That's why I can perform chemistry expirements without considering whether god is in the test tube or not all the while taking no position on god's existence. The same goes with the Theory of Evolution... seeking a natural explanation for the diversity of life on Earth is not saying that god had no role whatsoever. Ontology is the reference point from which epistemology is observed. To say otherwise is quite an interesting position. Something has to first pass through the application of ontology before it can have epistemology applied to it unless you learn about things in ways different than every other human I know of. Ontology breaks down all observances into categories of being, from which an observance is anaylyzed using epistemological notions such as truth, belief, and justification.Both actually focus on what is considered to be truth, belief, and justification. This is one of the basic concepts in Forensics ;P Give me just one example of something that falsifies the Theory of Evolution. Please. Cambrian Explosion. I could provide more if you would like.
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Practical Prodigy Junior Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 30 From: IN, USA Joined: |
Thanks I never expected to get grilled for simply posting my views, has turned into a life of its own a bit outside the scope of why I started thread to begin with
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DBlevins Member (Idle past 3776 days) Posts: 652 From: Puyallup, WA. Joined: |
Welcome Prodigy!
I don't think you were grilled. It just happens to make the debate go smoother when a debate on evolution is not embedded within the main topic of the post, ie. your 'hello!' post. I thought your message #23 would be a good place for such a discussion to start. It would help the forum if you would create a new post and maybe(?) cut and paste message #23 onto it. It seemed like a good place to start imho. Anywho, welcome aboard.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I never expected to get grilled for simply posting my views, has turned into a life of its own a bit outside the scope of why I started thread to begin with Don't sweat it, man ... or woman, whatever. Just stop responding and this abortion of a thread will just fade away, maybe, unless, as usually happens, some topic creep enters into the picture and an argument, totally unrelated to you, your views or your intro to the forum, ensues, in which case you can ignore this thread knowing full well you did not cause this mess. Please don't be inhibited by the preponderance of evolutionists on this forum. We can be a hard lot and sometimes a bit, shall we say, rough on those we are sure are demented enough to quote scripture at length while denying the facts staring them right in the #&*@% face. We have a tendency to run them off. We have some good theistic evolutionists here along with a number of dyed-in-wool YECs and even a few certifiable religious nutcakes. By the same token we have some nice agnostic evolutionists along with a bunch of hard core no-nonsense scientists and quite a few atheists (yours truly) and some rampaging baby eating anti-theists as well. It's a fun place. We can alway use some fresh theistic views around here. Some fresh blood, if you will. Some fresh meat to sink our fangs into while tearing off chunks of flesh. Forget this thread. Stick around. By the way, what is your muscle tone like? I'm trying to cut down on fats. Edited by AZPaul3, : Missed some vitally important words that if left out would surely alter the meaning of this message beyond my intent. Edited by AZPaul3, : some more
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Practical Prodigy Junior Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 30 From: IN, USA Joined: |
I'm a state champion swimmer so I might be a nice change of diet although I wont be such easy prey
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
I'm a state champion swimmer so I might be a nice change of diet although I wont be such easy prey Spirit. Excellent. See you on the pitch. Welcome and have fun.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2698 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Prodigy.
Welcome to EvC! For the sake of full disclosure, I also call myself a theistic evolutionist, although, in practice, I’m generally a naturalistic evolutionist. A theistic evolutionist is an evolutionist. The only difference between a theistic evolutionist and a naturalistic evolutions is that the theistic evolutionist inserts God in some places or at least leaves room for Him. A person who accepts micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution, is not a theistic evolutionist. Your views on the subject do not fit the common understanding of the term theistic evolutionist.
Prodigy writes: Mutations do not add new genetic information just recombine genetic material in a varied fashion. This is probably a topic for another thread, but let me make a brief comment here. If you would like to continue the discussion, you can probably use the search function to search for information, and you’ll likely find a couple open threads appropriate for this topic (or, you could start a new one in the Proposed New Topics forum). Mutations, by definition, add genetic information. Take a sequence:
AACTGGTGT Enter mutation:
AACTGGGGT You now have a new sequence that you didn’t have before. New information has been added to the gene pool. -Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus) Darwin loves you.
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Practical Prodigy Junior Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 30 From: IN, USA Joined: |
Perhaps I worded it wrong lol, a parent can not pass down traits or genetic information it does not carry. Once you factor in the fact that most gene control more than one expressed trait and you have quite a minefield evolution must survive to be viable. I'm not going to even bring up the issues that exist and have been proven in domestication. Even using selective breeding you can not turn a dog into a cat or different organism besides a different version of same organism. Perhaps that is a better explaination. There are limits to genetic variance such as, hybridization barriers, reproductive isolation, etc.
I dont dispute macro-evolution in the sense that an organism can speciate greatly. What I dispute is the fact that one genus of organism can change into another. If anything animals devolve and lose genetic information, fitness, etc usually. This is the reason animals were much larger in the past, even the primate brain has been proven to be bigger in earlier primates. I would not fit into any version of creationism due to my belief in convergence, speciation, etc. I also only believe in a allagory translation of Genesis, not literal which would also put me in the theistic evolutionist camp. Really like I said the only dispute I have with evolution is genus or higher level than species changes in an organism.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Alright, if you propose more than one mechanism to replace evolution as the agent of speciation perhaps you could at least list those that you believe in. Your present answer tells me nothing.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Practical Prodigy writes:
Fair enough. When you want to discuss any of those things, I guess you know what to do.
Well when asked a question I'll post why I have said position, was not attempting to have to delve this deep into my beliefs in an introductory thread, LOL. Unexplained Phenomena:
Isn't really unexplained.
The Placebo Effect The Sixth Sense
Doesn't exist.
Near Death Experience
Is explained.
UFO's/USO's - Unidentified Flying/Submerged Objects
Explained/not what people say they are.
Dj Vu (Memory illusion)
Explained.
The Big Bang (Origin of the Universe)
Has multiple explanations for it. We don't know the right one yet.
Singularity
I'm sorry, you need to explain what you mean by this in more detail.
Mammatus Clouds
Explained.
Non-aqueous Rain
Hypotheses (explanations) exist. There have not been much studies into this.
St Elmo’s Fire
Explained.
Ghosts
Don't exist.
Spontaneous Human Combustion
Doesn't exist.
Unexplained Disappearances
You've got to be kidding me. Nobody can be kidnapped without someone noticing. I'd like to draw your attention to Natascha Kampusch, who was abducted and kept in a basement for 8 years. Her disappearance wasn't explained until she ultimately escaped.
Bermuda Triangle
Doesn't exist.
The Hum
Explained.
Psychic Phenomena (esp, remote viewing, telepathy, clairvoyance or telekinesis)
Don't exist.
Naga Fireballs
Explained.
Blue Jets and Red Sprites
Don't know what these are.
Earthquake Lights
Numerous hypotheses exist. We don't know the correct one yet.
Relationship between brain and body
Explained.
Capacity (psychic and spiritual)
Doesn't exist.
Electronic Voice Phenomenon
Imagination.
The Sirius Mystery (as well as other ancient cosmology knowledge not visible from Earth)
Wishful thinking.
Tunguska Explosion
Meteorite.
Charles E. Peck (Chatsworth crash)
Don't know him, but I assume he survived the crash. This is somehow miraculous to you?
Would you like me to go on?
If they're all just as bad as these, then no, please stop. May I suggest you get your info from other places as "Discovery Channel"?
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Practical Prodigy Junior Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 30 From: IN, USA Joined: |
Well considering I have researched them please post explaination for the ones you claim are explainable just saying is explained is weak position. The last one maybe you should Google him and find out the story...
The ones you claim dont exist I could provide evidence to the contrary... Edited by Practical Prodigy, : No reason given.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2295 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Practical Prodigy writes:
Like I said, if you want to discuss one, pick one and start a new topic. I'll see what I can do once the topic is promoted.
Well considering I have researched them please post explaination for the ones you claim are explainable just saying is explained is weak position. The last one maybe you should Google him and find out the story... The ones you claim dont exist I could provide evidence to the contrary...
Not really, no. You could offer anecdotes, wishful thinking and misinterpretation, I'm sure. That's not evidence however. No, I'm not trying to say you're an idiot. You nkow who used to believe in some if not all of the things you mentioned? Me. Wanna know why I grew out of them? Evidence, or rather the lack thereof. Now, like I said, if you care to pick one, I'll see what I can do as to giving the explanation. Bear in mind though that I am not a scientist, and have not read every scintific report there is on these subjects. But then again, neither have you (I suspect) and yet you feel comfortable saying there aren't any explanations for them. Think about that one.
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