Did Mod cause the collapse of evcforum?

Wow...it seems the topic has already diverted. But let's answer a few questions directly:Modulous writes:

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No doubt, if it is ignored - he'll bring it up again in few years and I'd rather it was put to rest.

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There's an easy way to do it:Say you're sorry. Say that you made a horrendous mistake, you realize that your logic was faulty, and that you'll try harder in the future not to let it happen again.However, if you continue to behave in exactly the same manner, dumping on B for responding to A's misbehaviour rather than recognizing that the problem is A, then why do you think it shouldn't be mentioned that you have a history of this problematic thought process and that given your authority as moderator, you will trash the board rather than simply admit your mistake?

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And given your own personal history regarding the treatment of gay people on this board (*Dan Carroll*cough!*cough!*), you're not exactly helping.

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You should probably notify Dan and his girlfriend that he is gay

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OK, I handily admit that what I said could easily be interpreted as implying that Dan is gay. That was not my intention. I was referring to the entire concept of Hyro-nee-NJ's homophobia resulting in berberry's reaction and suspension and Dan's subsequent suspension for pointing out that it was wrong to suspend berberry for reacting to blatant homophobia.That is, I wasn't saying that you have a problem due to Dan being gay. I was saying that you have a problem due to the way Dan was treated in coming to the defense of a gay person defending himself against homophobia.You let the homophobia slide. Arguments that you wouldn't allow were they made about blacks or Jews are considered fair game when it comes to gays. Dan called you out on it and you kicked him out for it.It's complicated, I didn't express it well, my apologies.

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The Admin team seemed to be in consensus that whatever N_J was doing - it didn't merit suspension.

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And they were wrong. Is that really so hard to grasp? Do I really need to remind you that I had to literally grab y'all by the neck and shove your nose in Hryo-nee-NJ's posts to make you see it?But I forget, you admit you don't actually read the board you are charged with monitoring.

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I didn't suspend Dan for pointing out it was wrong to ban berberry.

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Can we please stop playing dumb? Yes, you will say that you suspended him because he was "disrespectful," but as crash points out, that didn't seem to be sufficient to suspend NJ...and in fact, you reduced his suspension when it finally did come to that.But the only reason Dan was "disrespectful" is because he was disagreeing with the decision to suspend berberry and the subsequent disingenuousness of the moderators regarding what was happening on the board.Remember, you specifically said Dan hadn't broken any rules.You're trying to pull a variant of "love the sinner, hate the sin" which has always been a bullshit argument.

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Dan made like 14 posts before he got suspended - if I was going to suspend him for pointing out it was wrong to ban berberry why did I not do it immediately after Message 55? Why did I let him make a dozen posts criticising berberry's suspension?

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Can we please stop playing dumb? Are you seriously saying that the proof that you weren't being capricious is because you didn't shut him down at post one? If he points out your failure and you don't acknowledge it, you don't get to claim that you aren't behaving like a prick if it goes back and forth multiple times before you finally decide to pull the switch.The underlying problem still exists: You failed, he pointed it out, you shut him down.Instead, the words you were looking for were, "Oops. My mistake."Once again, you failed at every single turn: Rather than focus on the person causing the problem (you), you decide to throw your wrath at the person pointing out the cause of the problem (Dan).

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Percy said "saying even more things he might later come to regret", which implies he had been saying regretful things.

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So? Saying something you regret is a punishable offence? Can we please stop playing dumb? That is not a statement saying that berberry is being suspended about past statements. It's a statement that berberry is predicted to say things in the future. It was predicted that berberry was going to cross the line and thus he was suspended before he could.

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You need to STOP.

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I stopped.

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Can we please stop playing dumb?My request for you to stop was not for you to stop talking. It was for you to stop doing what you were doing and consider if your actions were having the effect you were hoping to achieve.You were driving the board off a cliff and I was hoping you would stop. That doesn't mean I want the board to shut down. It means I want it to keep going but that your actions are going to destroy it.And sure enough, there was the collapse.What would have happened, do you think, if you had simply listened to berberry from the beginning? If you had had enough sense to realize that Hryo-nee-NJ was the source of the problem and put your attentions to him first, exactly how much grief could have been saved?

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How are their 'corpses' my liability?

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Because you, as a moderator, were in a position to do something about it.Instead, you went on and on defending the actions of the moderators and actually was involved in the very stupid moderator activity that caused the problem in the first place.It never occurred to you to say, "You know, you might have a point."You were the second-most vocal person on that thread. Do you really think you had nothing to do with the way the users felt about the moderators?

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I have already conceded that I made mistakes in that post.

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But you haven't apologized. And you're still behaving in exactly the same way.So what's changed, Modulous? If you had to do it all over again, what would you do differently?

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what errors I made and what impact those errors had.

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What posts from Dan Carroll, me, and crashfrog are causing you trouble? The big one was the refusal by the moderator team, of which you are a part, from taking berberry's complaints seriously. That then led to the incorrect suspension of Dan (by you) and the reduction of NJ's suspension (by you). That then led to my suspension (not by you, but you were part of the team). And over all, your continued defense of the moderators' actions through that entire episode.

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I don't have high hopes that you will be able to even attempt this method of discussion.

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(*chuckle*)See, there we go with the false humility again, the "more reasonable than thou" attitude.And since you had mentioned Percy, let me point out: I don't hold you solely responsible. As I said to Minnemooseus in that thread, he needed to step down. You, he, Percy, Phat, y'all seemed to have taken leave of your senses. The only reason I'm coming down on you is because you're the one who spoke up and started engaging in the exact same behaviour that caused the problem (coming down on B for defending himself against A rather than focusing on A for causing the trouble in the first place).You haven't learned your lesson and I will point it out every time you make the same mistake.And as you've mentioned the private message, I should say that I did reply to it...or at least I thought I did. It seems that it didn't take...it isn't in my Sent folder. That said, I think it's safe to say that your assumption you made in it isn't true:No, we're not.Not until you apologize for your behaviour and change your ways.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

Modulous avoids the question:

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I suspended one person for 72 hours. I've acknowledged it

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What was it you said in the other thread? Oh, that's right:You aren't actually arguing in good faith.For crying out loud, Modulous. This isn't about you acknowledging that you banned Dan Carroll.It's about you acknowledging that you were *wrong* to have banned Dan.Answer the question, Modulous:Do you think n_j (Hyroglyphx) did anything wrong? He sock puppeted the board in order to post homophobic bullshit all over the board.Was that OK? Did he do anything wrong?

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Even after emphatic directions to stop the discussion by the moderators - it continued and we faced a dilemma for how to deal with it. Ignoring it seemed to have no effect, suspending people made people martyrs.

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So it never occurred to any of you to get rid of the person who started it? That someone who ALWAYS compared being gay to rapists, murderers, pedophiles, drug addicts, etc. and that this ALWAYS derailed the thread might not be the best person to keep around?What is it with supposed "adults" who can't seem to handle the idea of punishing the bully but instead get pissed at everybody else who has to deal with the bully? Somebody points out to you that you have an ass on your board and you get upset that they called him an "ass"?

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Percy finally commented that the suspensions were in his opinion a mistake and removing privileges from the thread/forum the thread was in would have been a better solution - which I agreed with after one of the hardest facepalms of my life. At the time it was a function that wasn't discussed frequently and thus almost universally overlooked. After that thread, we began to deploy it more regularly. Lessons learned.

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Nope.That wasn't the lesson you were to learn.It was to have paid attention to berberry and focused your moderator functions on the person causing the problem:n_j, AKA Hyroglyphx.Notice he's still here but berberry is the one that's banned.When someone points out to you that a homophobic bigot is spewing hatred all over your board, you don't drop the ban hammer down on the person who brought it to your attention simply because you didn't like his attitude.You drop it down on the bigot. Followed immediately by: And you don't see any contradiction in that? "I don't think you broke the rules, but I am going to suspend you for breaking the rules."

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I believe Moose suspended you for continuing the discussion after receiving moderator direction to cease. In Message 111, 19-July-2007

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Which we know was incorrect. After all, which message was I suspended for?Oh, that's right: Message 110. Now, I realize that I'm only a mathematician and thus I haven't studied simple arithmetic in over 40 years, but I am of the opinion that 110 < 111.I got suspended for a message that was posted BEFORE ADMINNEMOOSEUS MADE HIS DIRECTIVE.Can you understand that? This isn't the first time this has been pointed out to you. Is there a reason why you have such a problem remembering? I mean, I know you don't think anybody did anything wrong and that might be part of the reason why you're having such trouble, but try to get this through your head:I got suspended for violating a directive that hadn't been made yet.And that's just me. berberry got suspended for posts he hadn't made yet...just fantasies that Percy had regarding posts he thought berberry might make.All because none of you would deal with the root of the problem:nemesis_juggernaut, AKA Hyroglyphx.A homophobic bigot spews hatred all over the board, derailing EVERY thread that has to do with sexuality, and your response to is to kick off everybody who is pointing it out rather than the bigot.None of you have acknowledged this.
None of you have apologized for this.
Nothing has changed.

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The whole affair was sorrowful, and I feel regret and sorrow for the way events played out.

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That isn't an apology, Modulous. That you're sorry other people were hurt only means you're sorry you got caught, not about what you did.Are you sorry about what you did?Do you think n_j (Hyroglyphx) did anything wrong? He sock puppeted the board in order to post homophobic bullshit all over the board.Was that OK? Did he do anything wrong?

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If there are any further things you'd like me to acknowledge, you are at leisure, as you have been for 8 years now, to post them to this thread where we can discuss them like adults.

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That still, after over a decade, you still don't know what the problem is shows that no, you cannot discuss this like an adult because you have been told over and over and over again what the problem is:nemesis_juggernaut spewed homophobic bigotry over the board, and doing it as a sock puppet to boot.When it came to your attention, you shot the messenger. Do you acknowledge this error?When others pointed out that you shot the messenger, you shot those messengers. Do you acknowledge these other errors?When he admitted that he sock puppeted the board to engage in this monstrous behaviour, you let him stay. Do you acknowledge this error?And can you make a real apology for them? That the problem is not the "sorrow" that happened in the aftermath of your actions but rather that your actions were wrong in the first place, that they were wrong at every turn, that nobody is responsible for them other than yourselves, and that you understand just how detrimental your actions were?

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I'm not sure how an act of contrition would work in a forum environment. Did you have something in mind?

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At this point, it's very difficult. The first would be to ensure that it doesn't happen again. After all, Hyroglyphx has refrained from spewing his bigotry over the board. Some called for you to step down as a moderator since you seem to be incapable of responding rationally regarding this issue (both the instigating issue and the aftermath). Again, it's been so long that what good could come of it?You could unban berberry and Dan Carroll and all the other messengers that got shot. I have no delusions that they would ever come back, but it would serve as a symbol that you understand just how screwed up the reaction of the moderators was so that if they did decide they wanted to come back, they could.Some sort of statement regarding how bigotry will not be accepted on this board would help. I'm not calling for Hyroglyphx to be banned at this point. It's too late. But should that side of his personality rise again, should Faith decide that she should pick up where he left off, should someone else come along to do it, are you all willing to respond to the bigot rather than the people pointing it out?I used to run a board of my own. We had someone who decided to put out the "Jews are descendants of Satan" idea. Ban hammer happened immediately. There was no discussion. Reason? "Christian Identity anti-Semitism."Now, people got a bit upset over that stated reason: "You mean if I identify as a Christian, you're going to assume I'm anti-Semitic?" I then pointed out that no, it wasn't a person's identification as a Christian that did it but rather that there is a white supremacist group known as "Christian Identity" that is the source of this idea that Jews are descendants of Satan. Those who promulgate such nonsense are not welcome and will be banned without discussion.So if a person comes along and compares gay people to rapists, murderers, pedophiles, drug addicts, etc., they get the ban hammer. I'm OK with a suspension as a warning not to do it again followed by the ban hammer on the second strike, but that should be the standard. Thinking gay sex is icky, thinking that your god doesn't like gays, wishing that you could live in a theocracy where gay people would be criminalized, that's up for debate. But to directly compare gays to rapists, murderers, pedophiles, drug addicts, etc. as Hyroglyphx did under his sock puppet of nemesis_juggernaut? Buh-bye.

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Dan should have been suspended

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And that's why you still haven't learned your lesson.Someone points out that you have a guest taking a dump in the punch bowl. You ignore this and shoot the messenger. Someone else tries to point out that you just shot the messenger and there's still someone taking a dump in the punch bowl. You blow them off. They call you an ass hat for your incompetence and you think the problem is that they called you an ass hat?Modulous: Dan would never have "disrespected" you if you had simply done your job and dealt with the problem of nemesis_juggernaut.We're back to the question you refuse to answer:Do you think n_j (Hyroglyphx) did anything wrong? He sock puppeted the board in order to post homophobic bullshit all over the board.Was that OK? Did he do anything wrong?

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I don't think NJs homophobia construed a problem in the context it was being discussed as I've said numerous times.

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And that's why this will continue to be brought up.You don't understand what you did wrong. You don't understand why it was wrong. You're sorry about the destruction your actions caused but you are completely clueless as to how you are the one that caused it. You keep looking for other people to blame and never consider the possibility that the blame lies solely on you and the rest of the moderators. For crying out loud, Modulous, you quote berberry's direct statement regarding it: Hyroglyphx in his sock puppet of nemesis_juggernaut spews homophobia all over the board and the response of the moderators is to punish the person pointing it out? Percy agrees that n_j is being insulting, but it's berberry who is the hysteric?And you wonder why berberry said, "Fuck you"?That you think berberry was suspended for "getting increasingly pissy" is the reason why you are wrong.That you think you banned Dan Carroll for "disrespect" is why you are wrong.That you think I was banned because I "violated a directive" is why you are wrong.We all got banned because we told the moderators about the homophobia being spewed over the board by Hyroglyphx in his sock puppet form of nemesis_juggernaut and you didn't want to hear it.You're just inches away from doing it again, Modulous, aren't you? If I piss you off, you're going to say that it's because I'm "disrespecting" you or being "off topic" rather than confronting the root cause:Y'all fucked up big time. A bigot showed up and you sided with the bigot rather than the target. And as the noise from the crowd trying to get you to pay attention to the bigot got louder, y'all dug your heels in deeper and started complaining that they weren't being nice rather than paying attention to the bigot.Do you think n_j (Hyroglyphx) did anything wrong? He sock puppeted the board in order to post homophobic bullshit all over the board.Was that OK? Did he do anything wrong?Are you sorry for what you did? Not for the aftermath but rather because you recognize that you (and the other moderators) bear the sole responsibility for this? That everything you did was wrong?Edited by Rrhain, : Typos

Phat responds to me:

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what would you have him do? Crawl to you and grovel at your feet?

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That's a bit overkill but given the severity of the problem, it's in the ballpark.I've said repeatedly what needs to be done:1) Acknowledgement of the mistakes made. "I spoke too much" doesn't cut it. "I shouldn't have engaged after the announcement" doesn't cut it. "The siding with the homophobic bigot rather than the victim was the source of the problem and every decision made afterward continued that fundamental error" is a start.2) Apology regarding the actions taken. "I'm sorry you're upset" doesn't cut it. "I'm sorry the board got hurt" doesn't cut it. "My inability to take the problem of homophobia seriously, both in general and in the specific way it was wielded against one of the members of the board, is a major failing and I am sorry that I failed both the individuals who tried to point this out to me as well as the rest of the board."3) Action to prevent this from happening in the future. Multiple people have requested that the admins in question step down due to the blatant display of incompetence. If Percy had done that at the time, that might have been helpful...but then again, Percy was part of the problem. Still is, actually. So since that's off the table, and I'm not calling for it, some sort of statement that the actions of Hyroglyphx will never be tolerated here and will be handed swiftly.

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It may well be true that the forum was wrong many years ago. people make mistakes.

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Of course. That's why you acknowledge the error, apologize for it, and take action to prevent it from happening in the future. To deny the problem, to continue to ignore it every time it flares up again, to allow the passage of time to happen without doing the work of acknowledging, apologizing, and taking action doesn't make the problem go away.It exacerbates it.To this day, nobody seems to think Hyroglyphx did anything wrong. After all, he's still here while his victims were suspended and banned. They let a homophobic bigot sock puppet the board and spew his bigoted bullshit in every thread that dealt with sexuality, derailing it instantly, and specifically targeted a member of the board.And at every turn, the moderators SIDED WITH THE BIGOT.And when *you* were brought into this, Phat, you failed to step up. Minnemooseus banned me for violating a directive he hadn't made yet. This was then retconned into some sort of claim that I violated a directive *you* made, but you weren't wearing your admin hat. So where were *you* to correct the record? I'm giving you a pass in the mishandling of Hyroglyphx because you weren't that vocal in the maltreatment of berberry, but you were being used to justify Minnemooseus' treatment of me. Where were you?

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Some of us are racist. Some homophobic. And some are activists who feel that they must fight for some vague cause of honesty and acknowledgment.

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And yet we have administrators who were being called out by multiple members of the board regarding exceedingly specific homophobic actions and they still to this day can't seem to understand what happened and how they went wrong.Look at you, Phat. You're trying to pass off the hounding of berberry as a "vague cause of honesty and acknowledgement." Percy...the very founder of this board...called berberry an hysterical, menstruating woman. And yet here you are, dismissing this as if it were merely a side dish you hadn't ordered.And Modulous is upset that Dan Carroll called compared him to a "retarded monkey" for his complete incompetence in this regard? He has the unmitigated gall to think that the problem is his hurt feelings rather than a bigot sock puppeted the board to spew homophobic bullshit and bully one of the members of the board?This isn't "vague," Phat. This goes to the fundamental ability of the admins of this board to take things seriously. By refusing to act against Hyroglyphx, they sent the message that it's OK to attack members of the board for their sexuality. They sent the message that it's OK to attack members of the board for their sex. They sent the message that if you dare try to point out that someone on the board is bullying members, *you* will be the one who is punished for bringing it up.Yeah, "vague cause of honesty and acknowledgement."

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Perhaps someday the world will be free of all of its biases and favoritism.

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Oh, spare me the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Perhaps to put it in language you would understand:Get off that cross. We need the wood.You are not the martyr in this scenario, Phat. You're the problem.

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More likely though, noisy activists, even if correct, will be unpopular due to their public antics and overreactions.

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And that's why you're the problem, Phat.A homophobic bigot sock puppeted the board and spew his bigoted bullshit in every thread that dealt with sexuality, derailing it instantly, and specifically targeted a member of the board.And you're SIDING WITH THE BIGOT.

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Its 8 years ago.

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And nothing has changed.That's supposed to make it OK?

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Its simply a small internet forum where many are familiar with one another.

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Bigotry is OK if you know the bigot? Bullying is OK if you know the bully?Simple question, Phat:Did Hyroglyphx do anything wrong?Yes or no.

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Continue being an activist and fighting for God knows what slight you feel you or your group has suffered.

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And that's why you are part of the problem, Phat. You are precisely the person you rail against: Too proud to admit your error and feel that allowing me (both generally and specifically) to be right is not an option.Answer the question, Phat:Did Hyroglyphx do anything wrong?

Modulous responds to me:

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Did NJ do something wrong? A broad statement. To the point however, he didn't break the forum rules - although later on he did, and was suspended for it.

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And that's the problem, Modulous.The words you are looking for are:Yes. He was a homophobic bigot who derailed the board in general and attacked a board member in particular. When it was brought to our attention, he should have been suspended immediately, apologies made to berberry for having allowed it to continue as long as it did, and not allowed in the future.That you can't bring yourself to say that, that you think this is a "broad statement," that you have the gall to claim "he didn't break the forum rules," is the reason why this is still festering.You have no integrity and no intellectual honesty and you will be called out for those failings every single time.A homophobic bigot was spewing bullshit over the board, and you sided with the bigot, not the victim. You claim that this is somehow "We sided with allowing discussion" as if bigotry is "discussion." Despite the fact that every single thread had this bigotry thrown in by the same person and every single time, it derailed the thread and brought all discussion to a grinding halt, you seem to think that to do nothing was to "allow discussion."And you wonder why berberry said, "Fuck you"?Everything else is ancillary. That you don't think Hyroglyphx as nemesis_juggernaut did anything wrong is the source of the problem and until you fix that, it will never be resolved.A bigot came to the board and you sided with the bigot.

Modulous responds to me:

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Well if he did attack a particular board member and he wasn't suspended for it, then I would certainly apologize for that oversight! I didn't however, see this attack, and when I asked, the only responses I got where of NJ NOT attacking a particular board member.

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And that's why this will never heal, Modulous.A homophobic bigot spewed his bullshit all over the board, attacking a member of the board.And you sided with the bigot.I suggest you need to work on the tone a little with a view to reaching a mutual understanding. You are free to ignore this, of course, but do you think this retconning of reality is actually going to help here? It seems to me, if you are truly the rational one you claim to be, that the repeated explication of your failures by multiple people on the board would only serve to increase your shame.Instead, you get defensive.Let's take a look at your defense:

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NJ responds with the following points

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Marriage is defined as a man and a woman
Freedom is regulated by laws and a justice system
Legalizing gay marriage would be a slippery slope to allowing further sins
More people are saying they are bisexual - this seems to be socially driven as it is mostly young people
On the one hand maybe we should not prohibit gay marriage, but on the other - relaxing our stance may lead to further taboos being questioned, and legitimized such as paedophilia

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(emphasis added)Boom. Right there. RIGHT THERE. That's the derailment. The suspension happens immediately, n_j is told in no uncertain terms that this homophobia will not be tolerated, and he is warned that if he tries to equate being gay to pedophilia ever again, he will be banned post haste with no further discussion. The post in question is deleted to prevent people from trying to continue the smear, and the board is reminded that homophobia will not be tolerated.But that didn't happen.Instead, you get pissed at *me* for turning his smear on gay people around on him: He's the one who brought up pedophilia. Nobody else was thinking of sex with children. And yet, he did. As history has shown in his other posts on the topic, every time he thinks about sex with another man, he immediately thinks about raping his infant son. Nobody else seems to be able to come up with any connection between being gay and rape, incest, or pedophilia, certainly not in any way such that being gay would lead to it while being straight would not, but he keeps making this connection.Because it's homophobia, pure and simple. There is no "discussion" to be had. The very point of equating gays to pedophiles is to smear gays and prevent any discussion about the rights of gay people.As I said back then: If my statements about n_j are beyond the pale, then n_j's statements are as well. They go together. They cannot be separated. To be offended by my statements necessarily requires offense at his.But, you sided with the bigot. Instead of nipping the problem in the bud, you punished the one who pointed it out and kept the bigot.Because hey! Lookie here:

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what about other sexual practices such as paedophilia or rape

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Boom. Right there. RIGHT THERE. Strike two. n_j is now gone. He's not only compared being gay to pedophilia, he's added rape into the mix. It's homophobia, pure and simple. There is no "discussion" to be had. The very point of equating gays to rapists is to smear gays and prevent any discussion about the rights of gay people.But, you sided with the bigot. Instead of nipping the problem in the bud, you punished the one who pointed it out and kept the bigot.

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not much here, a comment about Oscar Wilde presumably referencing a relationship with a younger person given the source is NAMBLA

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Boom. Right there. RIGHT THERE. Strike three. NAMBLA is tantamount to blood libel. n_j should have been removed at least one post ago. He's now saying there is an organized cabal of gays seeking to rape children. It's homophobia, pure and simple. There is no "discussion" to be had. The very point of equating gays to rape gangs is to smear gays and prevent any discussion about the rights of gay people.But, you sided with the bigot. Instead of nipping the problem in the bud, you punished the one who pointed it out and kept the bigot.

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molbiogirl posts about paedophilia and nothing else -- a bit of a derailment.

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I'd say something about the mental capacities of certain simians, but you'd ban me for it. Are you really saying that someone correcting the homophobic smear about gays and pedophilia by pointing out that the overwhelming majority of pedophiles are straight is a "derailment"? Why on earth are we even talking about pedophilia in the first place? Who is the one who brought up pedophilia? Are you honestly claiming that molbiogirl was the one derailing the thread by pointing out that n_j's comparison of gays to pedophiles was bullshit? The correct information is "derailment" but the smearing is not?As I stated numerous times, Modulous: If you cannot explain why heterosexuality doesn't lead to raping your infant daughter while homosexuality leads to raping your infant son, then you aren't bringing up pedophilia as a legitimate question. It's specifically to smear gays. Because that's the answer to n_j's JAQ-off: We can keep our taboos regarding age, relationship, and consent with regard to same-sex relations the same way we keep them with regard to mixed-sex relations.So once again, you're punishing the person pointing out the homophobic bigot and siding with the bigot. Right here, right now, you're siding with the homophobic bigot.Instead, you should be desperately trying to correct your post and say that you understand that n_j shouldn't have been allowed to get this far, that you're ashamed you didn't understand molbiogirl's post, and start trying to explain how you're going to never let this happen again.

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Hidden in there are some reasonable points, but you are clearly spoiling for a fight here. Your comments seem designed to evoke a bad reaction - goading you might say.

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Right, because there is a "reasonable point" in comparing gays to pedophiles, murderers, rapists, and drug addicts. Because he wasn't trolling. Are you kidding? His comments were specifically designed to "evoke a bad reaction - goading, you might say."And you sided with him. A homophobic bigot spews his bullshit all over the board.And you sided with the bigot.

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Well I don't see NJ derailing the thread particularly there.

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And that's why you fail. The moment he brought up pedophilia, he derailed the thread. He should have been suspended immediately for at least a week with a statement that this sort of homophobic libel will not be tolerated and the moment he tried it again, permanent expulsion.

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I see your combative self.

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And you should have been right there with me. For you to side with the bigot only shows your own opinion on the matter.

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Your posts making it to the Moderation procedures thread that between you and Berberry particularly results in Percy beginning the Great Purge.

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Because a homophobic bigot spewed his bullshit over the board.And you all sided with the bigot.The victim was banned and the bigot was allowed to stay.And you have the gall to claim that you were stripped of your admin rights because of your actions? No, you were stripped because Percy threw a fit. Rather than turning to the moderators and saying, "This homophobic bullshit needs to stripped from the board. If you cannot bring yourself to stop it, you will no longer be an admin on the board."Instead, a few months later, he put you back into power.And here you are, still unable to comprehend that you made the wrong decision at every turn.A homophobic bigot spewed his bullshit over the board.And you sided with the bigot.

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He too was growing tired of a fight. The constant fight to keep the debates civil.

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And despite repeated requests by the board for you to dump the bigot, you decided to ban the victims.It was trivially simple: The moment n_j brought up pedophilia, suspension with a warning that if he did it again, he'd be permanently banned.But instead, you decided to keep the bigot and ban the victim.

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Your last post is not as verbose as one might normally expect so I suspect you are losing the motivation.

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Nope. It's more that I understand that this boils down to a single issue:A homophobic bigot spewed his bullshit over the board.And you sided with the bigot.You're *STILL* siding with the bigot.Everything else is ancillary. Unless and until you can understand that bringing up murder, pedophilia, incest, drug abuse, etc. in a discussion about sexual orientation is in and of itself bigotry and derailment of the discussion, that there can be no discussion in that context, that it is only brought up specifically and purposefully to smear gays, put them on the defensive, force gay people to try and justify their basic humanity and very existence, you will continue to fail.A homophobic bigot spewed his bullshit over the board.And you sided with the bigot.You're *STILL* siding with the bigot.

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So if your steam has been vented and this is the end, I guess I'll see you in this thread in a few more years.

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Nope.Every time you show you are incompetent, I will continue to bring this up. The only way to make this stop is for you to engage in contrition:1) Acknowledge your error. n_j was the problem and you failed to respond but instead attacked the victim.2) Apologize for your error: Nobody else is responsible for your failure to respond. No amount of people making comparisons to the mental capacity of simians, no amount of people being suspended for directives that hadn't been made yet (in your haste to document things, you neglected to point out when I was banned), no amount of your wounded pride and ego is responsible for your actions. Instead, it was (at the very least) your incompetence and possibly worse.3) Act to prevent it from happening in the future. A clear policy that should anybody make any sort of comparison in the future, said person will be suspended and further attempts will result in expulsion.It really is that simple.

Modulous writes:

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Nope, don't think NJ was a problem.

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And that's why this will never heal. A bigot spewed his hateful bullshit all over the board and "I don't see it" is your response. Multiple people point this out to you and "NJ didn't equate them" is your response. The board collapses as a result and you and Percy whine about "political correctness."

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You sided with the bigot, Modulous, and if that means you feel attacked, that you are being accused of being "self-hating"...

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Well...

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If the shoe fits. It would explain a lot.

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And you wonder why Dan Carroll speculated about your mental capacity?

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And you wonder why berberry told the admins to fuck off?

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Until you acknowledge your error, apologize for it, and take action to ensure this never happens again, this will never be over.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

Modulous writes:

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Well I'm trying to discuss this openly and honestly with you with the goal of reaching an understanding.

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No, you're not. You're trying to justify your disgusting actions. Multiple people came to you regarding this, and you dismissed them and sided with the bigot.And you still can't see it. You bring up examples of other people who were banned for exactly the same thing (Baldrick Cunningplan's comparison of gay people to pedophiles, for example, or for saying that if it isn't wrong to discriminate against gays, then how can it be wrong "to elect the Grand Dragon of the KKK for president" (stifling comment about how we pretty much just did)) and yet cannot understand how n_j did the exact same thing and you're OK with it.Need more proof? This little exchange: And yet, you actually referenced Percy whining about "political correctness" in the very post I was responding to, and then quoted him literally whining about "political correctness," or did you forget? But oh, let's look at his complete statement, shall we? Message 18: As if equating gays to pedophiles, murderers, rapists, drug addicts, etc. "is a position that can be rationally and dispassionately discussed, in the same way that 'Women should not be allowed on the battlefield,' is a position that can be rationally and dispassionately discussed."After all, when discussing women in the battlefield, everybody seems to compare them to men and not to pedophiles, murderers, rapists, drug addicts, etc. So why is it suddenly "rational and dispassionate," when discussing the rights of gay people, to compare them to pedophiles, murderers, rapists, drug addicts, etc. rather than to, you know, straight people? That is, after all, the heart of the homophobia: Gay people aren't comparable to straight people. Gay people don't equate to straight people.Here's a hint, "Equating X to Y" is not a claim that someone said, "X is Y." It's that in looking at a particular issue where the trait under examination is X, the comparative examination is being made not to other expressions of X but rather to the completely irrelevant Y. The only reason to make this comparison is to poison the well. There is no "discussion" to be had in that environment. Do not play dumb and pretend that you don't understand this.The fact of the matter, Modulous, is that Percy whined about "political correctness." And as we have seen all too often over the years, the moment a person brings up "PC," they either just made or are about to make an outrageously bigoted statement and are trying to poison the well in advance from any blowback. Percy showed his true colors there.And your defense of him is showing yours.So no, you're not trying to "discuss this openly and honestly." You're trying to justify why you sided with the bigot.And you still can't see it.

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Yup, I didn't see hateful comments.

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And that is why this will never heal. Equating gays to pedophiles, murderers, rapists, drug addicts, etc. is by definition "hateful."And you still can't see it.And thus, this will never heal.

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I've a lot of first had experience at being the subject of hateful comments.

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Which makes your actions all the more reprehensible. You should know better. And here you are, *still* siding with the bigot. Oh, that shoe fits perfectly, doesn't it?And that is why this will never heal.

Modulous again shows his colors.Indeed, I am operating under the assumption that you do not wish to discuss this honestly for your every action shows this to be true. Rather than recognize the reprehensible actions, you complain over "sentence structure," as if the revelation that Percy and you think this is merely an issue of "political correctness" is somehow mitigating (in his case) and something of relevance to the issue at hand (in yours).You are doing everything possible to deflect from the core issue:A bigot spewed his bullshit across the board.And you sided with the bigot.Until you recognize this reality, this will never heal.

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I think it's reasonable to point out that Conservative Christians - a group whose participation is encouraged at this board - believe both homosexual sex and child abuse are sexual sins.

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Jaywalking and murder are both crimes. To think that one leads to the other, which n_j directly stated, is not "reasonable." If somebody wishes to discuss how they think being gay is a sin, they can compare it to being straight. To throw in pedophilia, murder, rape, drug abuse, etc. as n_j did serves only one purpose: To poison the well. There is no way to have "rational discussion" in such a context. n_j didn't merely state, "they are both sins." He directly asked how we can still condemn pedophilia, murder, rape, drug abuse, etc. if we allow gay people the right to get married.And you still can't see it. In fact, you'll distort the facts (dare I say it? "Lie") in order to pretend that something else happened. Anything and everything to confuse the issue in order to support the bigot and deflect from your own actions.And you wonder why the operating assumption is that you do not wish to discuss this honestly? You harp about "where we agree," but here's the thing:We don't agree.Everything you did, everything you have done, is wrong.Every single thing. From the moment you entered this issue more than a decade ago, you have done the wrong thing. There is not a single thing you have done correctly. Even your unbanning of berberry and Dan Carroll was done sanctimoniously and only after you were cajoled into it (yes, I know you did it before I explicitly stated it, but let us not play dumb.) You didn't do it because you thought they were kicked out unfairly, unjustly, and incorrectly. You did because you still think you were right and fantasize that you are being magnanimous.Everything you did was wrong, Modulous. Everything you are doing now is wrong.You continue to support the bigot.This affair will never be behind us so long as you continue to do so.

Modulous responds to me:

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Ah well. So what's the point, then?

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Hope springs eternal. Perhaps one day the honest truth will be seen by you. Phat finally figured it out. Perhaps you will, too.Of course, it doesn't help when you directly contradict yourself:

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I didn't complain over sentence structure. I pointed out that the way you structured your sentence implies something which is untrue.

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You do understand that the second sentence directly contradicts the first, yes?No, of course you don't. Once again, you've been shown up and rather than simply admitting you fucked up, you dig in your heels, spout falsehoods, and try to deflect from the core issue.A homophobic bigot spewed his bullshit over the board.And you sided with the bigot.You're *still* siding with the bigot.It seems you are not capable of stating any error you made regarding this core issue. Thus, this will never heal. I can only presume that you don't care about healing and are incompetent at obtaining it.And you wonder why berberry told you to fuck off? You wonder why Dan Carroll compared your mental faculties to that of a deficient simian? You wonder why crashfrog said: You're trying to justify your bad actions with bullshit, Mod. It's never going to work. That you continue to try shows that you don't care at all about fixing this but only about saving face.You literally cannot see the problem. How you, specifically, contributed to the problem.The only way this ends is for you to stop trying to justify your bad actions and admit that you fucked up.At every turn.Dan should not have been suspended at all, so you don't get any cookies for not doing it at some other point.He shouldn't have been warned, so you don't get any cookies for not suspending him. You should have snapped out of it and realized just how wrong you had been behaving.n_j should have been dumped, so you don't get any cookies for identifying his homophobia but not doing anything about it.You were wrong to pretend that you had no idea what to do and had to ask crashfrog for ideas. You had been told what would have been helpful by at least three other people.You were wrong to feign ignorance with crash regarding what was happening. You had been shown by at least three other people.You flat out lied about your reasoning for unbanning berberry and Dan Carroll.Here's what you said here: Once again, I'm reminded of someone's comments about the mental capacities of certain simians because it seems you can't remember that we can see what you wrote in Message 258 of Suspensions and Bannings Part IIISince you're so big on "reasonableness," would it be "reasonable" for berberry and Dan to respond to that message with "Fuck you"? No admission that they shouldn't have been suspended in the first place. Instead, you still think you were right and fantasizing that you're being magnanimous. You wonder why you're being called out as sanctimonious?Even your claim that you "acknowledge you contributed to the mess" is wrong because you didn't acknowledge your actual actions that contributed to the mess. You're not upset that you are the cause of the mess but rather that you spent too much time trying to craft the perfect bullshit justification for it. And *still* you can't understand that your justifications are bullshit and that you will never be able to justify it no matter how much bullshit you craft."The mess" is that you sided with the bigot.Everything you did was wrong, Modulous.Everything. Even when the results of your actions are OK (few and far between), the motivations and reasons for why you are doing them are wrong which means we cannot trust that the problem has been resolved and that you won't continue to do the wrong thing in the future.A homophobic bigot spewed his bullshit all over the board.And you sided with the bigot.You're *still* siding with the bigot.

Modulous writes:

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Repetition is not persuasive.

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Apparently, neither is the truth. You lie about things and when confronted with your own statements showing the lie, you pull a Trump and claim it wasn't what you said, that somehow you were misinterpreted, whining about the "principle of charity."What a perfect smoky eye you have, Modulous.All I have are the facts. I have no magic wand. I cannot make you see how awful you behaved and are still behaving. Only you can do that and the only method I have is to continually confront you with your actions in the hope that you'll finally get it.Just like with any bigot.Nobody's waiting here for you to come up with the perfect bullshit justification for bad actions. We're waiting for you to stop taking actions that are bad.It's very telling that you cannot see the point of this discussion. "But I didn't ban Dan Carroll at that point! That's a good thing we can agree on, right"? No, because what you should have done was say to him, "You're right, Dan. The suspension of berberry was wrong. Percy was wrong to do it. n_j should be reprimanded. I am going to correct the issue regarding berberry and see if I can help persuade Percy that he made the wrong decision."Instead, you want to focus specifically on the out-of-context action that Dan wasn't suspended at a certain point in time.It's very telling that you seem to think it can be divorced from the context in which it happened and that somehow makes what you did "reasonable."Every time you post, you have a chance to do that. You have a chance to say that you were wrong, that berberry, Dan, crash, and I (and others) were right, that even though you don't understand exactly what it was that you did wrong, you can see by the effects that it was a major cockup on your part, that you have some work to do regarding how to handle bigots when they start dumping turds in the punchbowl, and that you can only hope we can forgive you for your clearly inappropriate actions.But you don't. At every turn, you make the wrong decision and try to come up with a new bullshit justification. The latest is trying to say that because you didn't just ban us all immediately, that somehow shows you did something right.Are you so determined to be right, to cling to "blame on all sides," that you cannot do this?And that's why this will never heal.

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If twelve years of service has resulted in only 1 week of errors surrounding one incident then I'd say that's not too bad.

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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!I bet you really believe that, don't you?You're a craptacular moderator, Mod. Between you and Moose, I don't know which is worse.