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Author Topic:   Religious Experiences - Evidence of God(s)?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 1 of 55 (562632)
05-31-2010 3:45 PM


Religious Experiences - Evidence of God(s)?
There are two arguments that are repeatedly cited by believers of all flavours here at EvC. These are: "You cannot disprove the existence of god" and "Many have had subjective experiences that cannot be explained by science alone". In this thread I want to ask three questions.
1) What form do these experiences take? I am not asking anyone to reveal the intimate dealings that they have with their chosen deity. I am simply asking what the broad nature of these experiences consists of. Visions? Voices? Feelings of euphoria? Feelings of enlightenment? What?
2) What causes these experiences? Are these experiences best explained by the existence and interaction with the supernatural? Or are there better evidenced explanations for this phenomenon?
And my third question requires the following comparison:
Do I need to disprove the notion that the heat and light emitted by the light-bulb in my desk lamp is caused by a miniature ethereal salamander living inside the bulb before I can legitimately conclude that electrical resistance in a tungsten filament is a more likely cause? No. (let me know if this is too much of an assumption on my part)
Do I need to disprove the existence of god before I can legitimately conclude that aspects of human psychology and culture are more likely to be the cause of religious experiences than the existence of (and human interaction with) supernatural immaterial entities? Apparently so (based on numerous conversations in numerous other threads).
My third and final question is - Why?
3) Why must I disprove the existence of god before I can conclude that other explanations for religious expereinces are better evidenced, superior and more likely to be correct?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 55 (562654)
05-31-2010 5:24 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Religious Experiences - Evidence of God(s)? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 55 (562675)
05-31-2010 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
05-31-2010 3:45 PM


Four from the archives.
Hi Straggler,
Just passing through so make of them what you will. I'll stick to examples that might last longer than a snowball in hell
-
1) The Case of the Missing Gloves.
I was a new believer at the time, without much of a clue of God. It was high summer in Ireland and I was leaving work. I decided to slip the bike gloves under the bungee cord strapped to the pillion - enjoying the coolness of 70mph air over my hands at risk of road-rashed hands. I headed down to my mams for a visit - 50 miles ride say. I stayed for dinner and headed home in the dark - 20 miles from her place. After I locked up the bike, I reached for the gloves - GONE!
Shit!!. Not only were they very expensive, but they also fitted like ...
Being impulsive, I was on the bike and back out on the road before I had given it a moments thought, riding along scanning the other side of the road for two dark blobs. A few miles in and I was in the countryside - riding along unlit roads. I could barely see the road in front of me - never mind looking for two black leather gloves on black tarmac on the unlit side of the road opposite. I tried scanning the kerb in the light given off by oncoming cars.
5 miles in and doubts began to creep in abou my ability to spot them at all. 8 miles in and it occurred to me that I could have lost them on the way DOWN to my mams. Indeed, it was more likely to be so. As I approached the village of Kilcoole, your best friend, HRH Rational Evaluation had set firmly in. I slowed up, checked the mirrors and prepared to swing around.
"Don't stop, go on"
No exclamation marks, no bolds. no raised voices. Just a voice in my head I recognised to be other than my own. I should know.
So I continued on, into the village and out the other side. And there, in the middle of the road and under one of the last of a short string of streetlights spanning the village were my gloves, their small reflective labels shining like a beacon in the dark, lest I should miss them.
-
2) The Mysterious Case of the Ever Convenient Petrol Station
PaulK worked this out for me one time and came in with some astronomical figures re: "chances of". Same motorcycle, same broken low fuel warning light. I'd a 30-60 mile round trip to work depending on whether I took the interesting or boring route. I'd also no car - so the bike got used for all transport outside the 5 day a week commute. Much varied use in other words.
Because of the broken warning light I used to lose track of the amount of petrol in the tank. And so I ran out of petrol quite a few times. 6-7 if memory serves me correctly. On that bike, you'd get a warning cough when dry after which you'd get a 1/2 mile or so before she died completely. Each of those 7 or so times I ran out of petrol however, I either rolled spluttering .. or freewheeling into a petrol station forecourt - I never had to push here so much as a metre.
At least once, this occurred on the M50 motorway around Dublin - which has no services on it of any description. I ran out close to an exit which happened to have a petrol station close by. The vast majority of exits haven't petrol stations nearby.
Either God is indeed interested in the finest detail of our lives (even the hairs on your head or numbered) or I won the equivilent of the lotto a few times over.
-
3) The Case of the Red Balloon.
Not a personal one this time but recounted by my mother of someone she assisted in leading to the Lord (as they say).
As is frequently the case, the path to God gets fuzzy at the final few hurdles. This woman had gone through a period of confusion surrounding God: did he exist, was it the case you could have a relationship, what was all this "giving your life the Lord" stuff. Anyhow, she made her committment and that was that - nothing much happened.
One day, not so long after, she's in the supermarket down the town. She buys her young daughter a red ballon. A helium-filled one - you know, one of those foil-type things. It's red and has a picture of a bear on it. Whilst at the car, filling the boot with shopping, the daughter loses her grip on the balloon and away it goes. Up and up and away!
A morning or so later, the woman opens her back door to go out to the garden and there, caught in a bush by the door by it's string, is a red, helium filled foil balloon. With a bear on it. You'll take it as chance - however outlandish. She took it as her answer having been heard by God.
-
4) The Case of d'Unbelievers Encounter with God
During the period when my dad was dying a few years ago, we headed up to his cottage and took up residence for the trips back and forth to the hospital. And we stayed there after he died to spend some time together and pack up all his stuff - figuring to do it all whilst he was still "alive" in our memories.
My dad was an artist amongst other things. And a hoarding one at that. There were rolls upon rolls of art paper containing prelim sketches for paintings going way back. In fact, my dad appears to have had a pathological hatred of throwing away paper altogether. Of all his possessions, paper accounted for about 50%. Anyways...
My older sister is the uber-responsible one and not a believer. Indeed, she'd be medium antagonistic to the faith of her brother and mum (having been Bible-bashed by both of us in our post-converison enthusiasm probably didn't help). But even she had been semi-consciously taken aback at how all the aspects/chances around dads dying seemed to be flowing so smoothly. She was, for the period that the Lord shone on us (so could my believing mam and me plainly see), in a kind of semi-believing state. Kind of acknowledging unspokenly - but plain unbelieving had you asked her outright about it. Anyways..
Dad's will was troubling my sister. We were going through stuff and throwning out stuff and her being a perfectionist/controller was very uncomfortable with all this activity-of-others without the will being found. It wasn't a money-grabbing thing - just something she knew was important for all kinds of reasons - but wasn't "neatly sorted out yet". And that was like a thorn in her side.
So she's sitting at my dads desk one evening, looking through old photos, crying her eyes out when suddenly, in her own words (more or less) "I just got this 'sense' to turn around. So I did. There behind me on the shelves were stacks and stacks of rolled up papers. My hand went to one roll in the bunch and I picked it out. I unrolled it and there, in the very middle .. was dad's will"
The 'presence of God' left a week or so after that. I remember both my unbelieving sisters actually complaining about this in that same semi-conscious way. They knew there had been an "air of grace", of benevolence around - even with the pain of dads last days and death. And they didn't want it to go. It was nice to have around. I'd have to agree with them.
-
So there you have it Straggler. You might want to employ the services of PaulK in helping you crunch the numbers unto dismissal.

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Replies to this message:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4 of 55 (562720)
06-01-2010 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
05-31-2010 7:29 PM


Re: Four from the archives.
iano writes:
You might want to employ the services of PaulK in helping you crunch the numbers unto dismissal.
For the sake of argument, lets assume that each of these examples is actually extremely unlikely. (Most of these are very unconvincing in that regard.)
You appear to have described several examples of confirmation bias. Each of these people were searching for something, and were not placed in a position where the event had a single chance of occurrence. For example:
1) You looked for your gloves for miles down the road. You were having doubts about your ability to find them, likely even before 5 miles into the search. Every empty stretch of road wasn't evidence against God existing; even were you to never find those gloves (like the many things I am sure you have lost across the years) you wouldn't take it as proof of God not existing. When you spot the gloves, which are marked with reflective labels precisely to increase your ability to do just that, you retroactively interpret your pressing on in the face of doubt as a supernatural voice in your head.
2) PaulK never runs out of gas even without a meter (apparently). First of all, if you have no meter you are going to be much more careful about regularly picking up gasoline. If you drive for a while you will go to fill up again, so your chances of hitting empty are rather slim due to your natural reaction to prevent it.
But lets suppose he did run out of gasoline several times, and sometimes he was close to a station and sometimes not. Would he have concluded that God didn't exist because he wasn't saved from running out of gas? I somehow doubt it, and he would be claiming divine intervention in how he never seemed to get an empty ketchup bottle in the local diner.
3) Your mother's friend was looking for a sign; any sign which would back up her preconceptions. "One day, not so long after..." is not a particularly definite period of time; it could have been weeks after her conversion. During this span she is looking for any type of coincidence that she judges as having a low enough probability to carry supernatural meaning. She finally finds it in litter from a mass-produced product easily and often scattered over the local area.
It is like saying "This person I know accidentally dropped their half-finished Coke bottle off the bridge, and then when we came home that evening we saw an empty Coke bottle along our curb! *GASP*, its GOD!" Not only is it not particularly astonishing that that exact type of balloon was similarly lost, but there is also a wide area in which it could be found. It didn't even have to be that day; any time during that week she could have found the balloon, perhaps at her parking place at work, or her child's school.
4) Your sisters are going through everything your father had in his house, for several weeks. They are consistently emotional and particularly prone toward religious or spiritual interpretations of experiences. At some point, after searching through the entire house for several days, one of your sisters finds your father's will.
Was every stack of papers or box of belongings they searched proof that God didn't exist? Is it truly that astonishing that they would have found the will at some point? If they hadn't ever found a will, would they have concluded God didn't exist... or just that your father didn't write a will?
---
The most telling thing from all these experiences is that they are utterly devoid of any actual indication of supernatural origin. Their occurrence does not in any was indicate that a god exists, or that a god was necessarily required for such things to happen. Even were these things extraordinarily unlikely to occur, being unlikely does not imply that it was caused supernaturally.
The common theme in these accounts is that these people were looking for something, anything, to confirm their hopes. Out of literally billions of experiences on a daily basis they finally find one that fits their bill, and latch onto it.

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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 55 (562724)
06-01-2010 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
05-31-2010 7:29 PM


Re: Four from the archives.
Of course it isn't true that I crunched the numbers and came up with an astronomical figure. In fact I did come up with a plausible explanation.
In fact there is nothing worth taking seriously as evidence of a God there, in any of your examples.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 6 of 55 (562733)
06-01-2010 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
05-31-2010 3:45 PM


nullius in verba
What form do these experiences take? I am not asking anyone to reveal the intimate dealings that they have with their chosen deity. I am simply asking what the broad nature of these experiences consists of. Visions? Voices? Feelings of euphoria? Feelings of enlightenment? What?
Visuals, voices (though often the voices aren't normal they are 'impressions of emotions or desires in a pseudo vocal fashion'). Feelings of euphoria, 'oneness', dissociation, egolessness, feelings of enlightenment, expansion of the centre of perception to a general objective 'observer' just about covers the generals.
I've had so many though, and my memory has added mythos and filligree to some of them. So some of them are more...graphic...than others. There seems to be a correlation between age of memory and fantastical nature of the experience. I couldn't say if that is due to the nature of memory or the differing brain of an adolescent from and adult.
2) What causes these experiences? Are these experiences best explained by the existence and interaction with the supernatural? Or are there better evidenced explanations for this phenomenon?
I can voluntarily invoke a religious experience. That would suggest they come from me. Unless Allah, Jahweh, a pagan collection of advisors, the pantheist entity (both personal and impersonal), the leszi and me (I've had a couple of religious experiences which I was the figure of religious focus!) are all manifestations of some real supernatural agency or something which is at my beck and call.
But I think they are just the shadows and illusions that are part of the normal activity of the human brain. Some people are still under the impression that their vision is a wide view totally coloured entirely in focus better than HD experience, when in fact their vision, like all humans, is basically crap with only a few degrees of the visual field actually being in focus at any time.
Every element of our perception is a convenient lie, sometimes the deception is more blatant. Sometimes we take it for granted, to the point where we think people are crazy when they suggest an alternative.
Do I need to disprove the notion that the heat and light emitted by the light-bulb in my desk lamp is caused by a miniature ethereal salamander living inside the bulb before I can legitimately conclude that electrical resistance in a tungsten filament is a more likely cause? No. (let me know if this is too much of an assumption on my part)
When understanding perception, we should probably default to 'what you remember perceiving is a convenient fiction based on the real truth'. If you see a semi-transparent salamander which is both red and yellow (I've seen things that are both, I thought they were auras and I spent several years studying them to become a 'psychic healer'...*sigh*) - that's more likely because you haven't slept, ate a bit of ergot rather than confirmation of ethereal salamanders

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 7 of 55 (562736)
06-01-2010 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
05-31-2010 3:45 PM


Re: Religious Experiences - Evidence of God(s)?
Another question we might ask is about extreme experiences of there not being a God.
If a really intense feeling that there is a god is to be considered valid evidence, then what about an equally intense feeling that there isn't?
I have experienced both, and would discount both as guides to what is actually true. But how would anyone justify taking one of them seriously but not the other?

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 55 (562745)
06-01-2010 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
06-01-2010 5:47 AM


Re: Religious Experiences - Evidence of God(s)?
Dr Adequate writes:
Another question we might ask is about extreme experiences of there not being a God.
Can you explain the difference between such an experience and say, the everyday experiences of there not being fire-breathing dogs?
I suspect you are talking about an emotional devastation and feeling of hopelessness, or dismay at being cheated and fooled. Perhaps a lack of direction or goals for your life, or the realization of your own mortality. Drawing a distinction between a feeling contradicting a deeply held belief rather than an accepted one might shed some light on the issue.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 9 of 55 (562747)
06-01-2010 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phage0070
06-01-2010 8:28 AM


Evidence of God's non-existence.
Can you explain the difference between such an experience and say, the everyday experiences of there not being fire-breathing dogs?
I can't speak for Dr A, but I've had experiences where I felt totally at one with a natural universe with no supernatural guiding agent present, elegant and beautiful. Awe-inspiring and frightening etc - a wonderful sense of dizzying structure forming from chaos, etc etc. They were just as powerful and real as when Allah called to me.
He raises a good point: We should keep in mind the contradictory nature of the full range of numinous experiences when weighing them up evidence wise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phage0070, posted 06-01-2010 8:28 AM Phage0070 has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 55 (562748)
06-01-2010 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phage0070
06-01-2010 8:28 AM


Re: Religious Experiences - Evidence of God(s)?
Can you explain the difference between such an experience and say, the everyday experiences of there not being fire-breathing dogs?
I suspect you are talking about an emotional devastation and feeling of hopelessness, or dismay at being cheated and fooled. Perhaps a lack of direction or goals for your life, or the realization of your own mortality. Drawing a distinction between a feeling contradicting a deeply held belief rather than an accepted one might shed some light on the issue.
Actually, no, you're way off base.
Modulous has described it so that I have little more to add.
I am talking about a numinous awareness of reality, without any gods in it particularly; but there might be gods, but they'd just be more real things, like everything else.
Well, the sensation is hard to describe.
But this is completely different from the usual feeling I have that there is no God, which is comparable to the feeling I have that I am not incredibly rich, or immortal, or at least immune to the usual effects of smoking tobacco, and which might all be summarized by the word "damn".
The point is that one can have what feels like a "religious experience" which is in fact profoundly irreligious.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 55 (562751)
06-01-2010 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Modulous
06-01-2010 8:41 AM


Re: Evidence of God
Modulous writes:
...I've had experiences where I felt totally at one with a natural universe...
I suppose this implies that normally you feel like you are to some extent not part of the natural universe. I don't think that is the focus of the experience though, especially in light of you having several which vary in this respect.
Modulous writes:
...elegant and beautiful. Awe-inspiring and frightening etc - a wonderful sense of dizzying structure forming from chaos, etc etc.
It seems to me that you are describing a class of experiences that don't hinge on the presence or absence of deities or design to the universe, but rather are fundamentally based on awe. You seem to be describing a feeling of amazement... just general amazement, similar in concept to dj vu being a general feeling of having already experienced the present.
Similarly I have heard of people experiencing profound feelings of primal fear, or the sensation of being watched by a presence (both malevolent and benevolent varieties). Or the feeling of being separate from one's body or limbs. The interpretation varies depending on the viewer, where the latter "out of body" experience could be viewed as an alien abduction or journey to heaven depending on the person.
Perhaps the details are irrelevant compared to the emotional impact of the experience itself. Given that dj vu can to a certain extent be pharmacologically induced as well as faith experiences, it might be interesting to research the form faith experiences take when compared to diet or genetics.
Edited by Phage0070, : No reason given.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 12 of 55 (562753)
06-01-2010 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
06-01-2010 2:33 AM


Re: Four from the archives.
Evidently religious people don't understand probablility and coincidence.
How many other people have lost a pair of bike gloves or run out of gas. I guess he thinks his god only cares about him and no one else.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 13 of 55 (562761)
06-01-2010 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phage0070
06-01-2010 9:17 AM


Re: Evidence of aGod
I suppose this implies that normally you feel like you are to some extent not part of the natural universe. I don't think that is the focus of the experience though, especially in light of you having several which vary in this respect.
Normally I have a sense of self-as-seperated-from-everything. A feeling of independent awareness where there is 'me' and 'everything else'.
That is quite a different state of mind from the kinds of experiences I was inadequately describing. If you've never experienced it, I'm guessing it would be like to trying to explain 'red' to a blind person.
It seems to me that you are describing a class of experiences that don't hinge on the presence or absence of deities or design to the universe, but rather are fundamentally based on awe.
That's exactly what I was describing. When Allah, Jahweh, the Angels, Bylebog, the pantheist universe, and any number of other entities called to me, it didn't hinge on the presence or absence of deities in the universe but on various brain activities.
Some people think that when there is a deity in the religious experience, it is evidence for said deity's existence. The question is: does the explicit (or implicit) absence of said deity from other similar experiences count as evidence against a deity's non-existence?
You seem to be describing a feeling of amazement... just general amazement, similar in concept to dj vu being a general feeling of having already experienced the present.
Then perhaps I did not adequately describe it. I get a general feeling of wonderment and amazement when I do amateur astronomy. Only occasionally will I fall to my knees weeping at the majestic power of the universe and my fragile place carefully balanced on a lump of rapidly rotating rock and metal all the while losing my sense of singularity and personality. Sometimes accompanied by mild (or not so mild) hallucinations...
I categorize them differently, though they are almost certainly related ends of a spectrum.
Similarly I have heard of people experiencing profound feelings of primal fear, or the sensation of being watched by a presence (both malevolent and benevolent varieties)
Indeed, quite common you might say. Though if they occur often enough to get in the way then one should seek professional help.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phage0070, posted 06-01-2010 9:17 AM Phage0070 has replied

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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 55 (562764)
06-01-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Modulous
06-01-2010 10:46 AM


Re: Evidence of aGod
Modulous writes:
I categorize them differently, though they are almost certainly related ends of a spectrum.
I wasn't referring to amazement in the sense of cheapening the strength of the emotion compared to say awe, instead I was trying to clarify the *type* of sensation.
Most people at some point feel a tingle of being watched when they have no logical reason to think that they are. Occasionally some people get this sensation cranked up to 11, where they become dysfunctional from paranoia. I would say that fundamentally the sensation one feels when speaking on stage and the sensation of someone suffering from paranoia are the same, the difference being the strength and the appropriateness of its application.
Classifying them differently is what I see as the root of the problem with religious experiences. It is tempting to consider a sufficiently strong emotion as somehow special, or of particular weight. Contrasting fear with terror for most isn't the same thing as contrasting amazement with numinous awe, and it is that disconnect that I see as the root of most religiously-identified experiences.

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 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 06-01-2010 10:46 AM Modulous has replied

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 15 of 55 (562766)
06-01-2010 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phage0070
06-01-2010 11:27 AM


Re: Evidence of aGod
I wasn't referring to amazement in the sense of cheapening the strength of the emotion compared to say awe, instead I was trying to clarify the *type* of sensation
It might be the case. But it might also be the case that it is the same 'type' of sensation only in the sense that water is the same 'type' of things as whisky.
But yes - there are two general commonalities: Fear and awe, which are often heightened beyond anything that is remotely normal.
But I think there is more zing going on than just that, though I lack empirical support for that.
Most people at some point feel a tingle of being watched when they have no logical reason to think that they are. Occasionally some people get this sensation cranked up to 11, where they become dysfunctional from paranoia.
This is a perfect example. It's one thing to think you are being watched. It's also something to think someone might be working together. It is a whole kettle of fish to think that everything is working together in some elaborate network of tricks to fool and humiliate you ultimately leading to your suicide which you can see is the desire in everyone's eyes. Even that weirdo that appears in the mirror with you sometimes...The point being that it is perfectly possible to have fear, but to be consumed by it seems to indicate that something is being suppressed that would normally allow you to write off your fear as 'baseless' and to press on.
I don't think it is *merely* a question of degree, though that is definitely in play. I think there are a suite of issues going on that cohere into the strange emotional states we sometimes see. A difficulty discerning ones internal thoughts from external voices, agency alertness, seeing patterns and significance where non exist...all come together to make someone suffer a paranoid delusion (or acute religious experience, in the case that the 'other' is benign).
While some religious experiences may well be one emotion to extreme, I wouldn't be surprised to see a suite of things going on that form a coherent-appearing narrative.
Classifying them differently is what I see as the root of the problem with religious experiences. It is tempting to consider a sufficiently strong emotion as somehow special, or of particular weight. Contrasting fear with terror for most isn't the same thing as contrasting amazement with numinous awe, and it is that disconnect that I see as the root of most religiously-identified experiences.
Maybe, but I think giving them a sub-name is just as useful as anything. It may cause problems, but those problems will arise anyway, no doubt. People find these things convincing even if they know they are on drugs or that someone had a very similar experience but with a different god figure involved. Not much more we can do here.
The thing is, without empirical support all we can do is use the terms as we find them. That car is red as opposed 'the frequency of visible light that is presently being reflected from the surface of that entity which can be loosely named 'the car' is strongest between xHz and yHz.' One might help us avoid mistakes when we investigate - but for most purposes 'red' or 'religious experience' will have to suffice
Especially given there are almost as many descriptions of religious experiences as there are experiencers...

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 Message 14 by Phage0070, posted 06-01-2010 11:27 AM Phage0070 has replied

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