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Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Show me the intelligence ... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
Is there some feature of a watch (beyond knowing that watches ARE intelligently designed, or that one could see signs of tooling) that says it is designed by an intelligence. Yes there is. As I noted elsewhere, the visiting alien could note, in short time, that the watch didn't have the capability of reproduction. It may know otherwise but we only know two ways for such a form to arise: manufactured or evolved. Since, a non-breeding "thing" can't use the second the first becomes a possibility. However, other aliens would argue that it might be just a dead part of a living thing or a "seed" or a natural consequence of some peculiarity of this planet (like a snowflake). It is hard to put oneself in the place of anything truely alien. Common sense isn't
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
But is it wrong? Impossible to say. It's unfalsifiable.
Is unfalsifiable a bad thing? Yes. And unfalsifiable theory explains nothing and is of no use, regardless of whether or not it's "right". Because there's no potential situation where it could be definitively refuted, there's no way to know if it's right or not.
How are these things not dependent on a designer, if a designer made everything in the universe? If every single thing that could exist is the product of design, how would you know if anything is?
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Peter Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
This is what I'm trying to get at.
If the only way we can say that something that we KNOWis designed by an intelligence is because we know it was designed by an intelligence ... how can we even assess the intelligent design content of an object ANY object ... even a watch.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I agree that we cannot place ourselves in an alien's
shoes ... but the comments so far seem to be heading toward, basically, that we cannot determine whether intelligence was involved even for something which we KNOW in advance was intelligently designed.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Not asking about design -- asking about intelligence. But one cannot know whether a smow-flake was intelligently designedor not without knowing that it was intelligently designed. quote: More or less my point. Unless one knows the IDer one cannotknow that there was ID .... even for objects that we know where the product of intelligent design (am ... am I repeating myself? ). quote: No ... it's just not terribly useful/informative.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Sorry, forgot to answer a direct question:
quote: My answer to this question is: I cannot think of anything.Perhaps some recognisable maker's mark, or an instruction manual with revision number ... flippant perhaps, but that's how I see things. That's my problem, and why I started this thread. I cannot seeany way of determining the 'intelligent' input to an extant object ... even one that is a KNOWN intelligent design ... like a watch.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined: |
More or less my point. Unless one knows the IDer one cannot know that there was ID .... even for objects that we know where the product of intelligent design (am ... am I repeating myself? I understand. Good job I know the IDer. Do you? My other point is that everything is dependent on the IDer. Because even a snowflake could not happen if there were no universe which the IDer has made.I know the IDer, I've been told how and why - so I obviously recognise his handywork..........clarity when you know the IDer is garunteed. confusion when you don't = evolution.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1479 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
quote: Great! Perhaps you can get him/her/it to post here and endall our confusions
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Darwin's Terrier Inactive Member |
Hi Mike!
I know the IDer, I've been told how and why - so I obviously recognise his handywork There's a number of bits of his handiwork I'm quite fond of -- have I mentioned them to you? (I tend to lose track... See my website via my profile if not .) Since you know the IDer, and he's told you the how and why, perhaps you are just the chap I'm looking for to explain them?! Cheers, DT [This message has been edited by Darwinsterrier, 01-15-2004]
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined: |
Hi there DT!
Hill says, is not complexity, but rather, simplicity. Specifically, it is the ability to take a complex process or product spec and create the least complicated design that will meet all project parameters. If you can design and make me a simpler universe I'll hear about it on the news. I haven't read all the site but I mean, I say this all the time, if anyone could do a better job than our present IDer - fire away, I'm listening.
There's a number of bits of his handiwork I'm quite fond of Name 'em. It's gotta be dung beetles. How can those taste buds not be an IDer's joke. [This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 01-15-2004]
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Darwin's Terrier Inactive Member |
If you can design and make me a simpler universe I'll hear about it on the news. I haven't read all the site but I mean, I say this all the time, if anyone could do a better job than our present IDer - fire away, I'm listening. Heh! I’m quoting Hill (and Humphrey) in relation to biological ‘designs’. Which I don’t think you would consider simple. The argument is about organised complexity, so whether the universe in general is ‘simple’ is irrelevant!
Name 'em. I’ll leave that hanging for a bit so that Quetzel can have a chuckle...
It's gotta be dung beetles. How can those taste buds not be an IDer's joke. Dung beetle taste buds? Wow, thanks Mike, I’m not too up on beetles (your creator had too great a fondness for them for me to have kept track ), but I’ll have to look into those! Makes sense though that they could tell bad dung from... ‘seriously good shit’... DT
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined: |
Listen , I can't even understand half the language on your site, so if ever there's an example of simplicity it's me.
Makes sense though that they could tell bad dung from... ‘seriously good shit’... I'm starting to feel like a tird here...this feels aimed in my direction.Oh well.....you can't polish a tird, hehe. I'm just wondering how dung beetles and dino dung were always around evolutionarily speaking Otherwise our taste buds would be similar to dung beetles (work that one out ).
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Darwin's Terrier Inactive Member |
I'm starting to feel like a tird here...this feels aimed in my direction. Not in the slightest, Mike... It’s a reference to what (I gather) certain recreational psychoactive substances are sometimes called. I had an interesting image of stoned beetles in mind. Though the word is ‘turd’...
I'm just wondering how dung beetles and dino dung were always around evolutionarily speaking Otherwise our taste buds would be similar to dung beetles (work that one out ). I’d try, if you’d not Pokemon-evolved into Brad... whatcha onabaht, mate? DT
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Darwin's Terrier Inactive Member |
Listen , I can't even understand half the language on your site, so if ever there's an example of simplicity it's me.
You are, of course, perfect, Mike . It's the rest of us, with our appendixes, coccyxes, retinas, voice-box nerves, knees, epiglottises, wisdom teeth etc that are buggered! But that's to jump the gun... Firstly, perhaps you could define your IDer please? By which I mean, are we talking yer basic omnipotent, omniscient etc single god? I need to ask, cos there are other possibilities, which my examples are powerless against. Cheers, DT
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined: |
whatcha onabaht, mate? Tee hee hee, if there were no dung beetles to eat the dino dung we would be knee deep in turd, so we would have had to evolve turd buds. Get it now?
Not in the slightest, Mike... I know... I'm just in a silly mood. I didn't know turd was a word so I typed tird. My conjunctive crash pallete only dissects mandatory words in the wiz file. You are right ofcourse, I have none of these necessities because I am a computer program.
But that's to jump the gun... Firstly, perhaps you could define your IDer please? By which I mean, are we talking yer basic omnipotent, omniscient etc single god? We're talking your basic Biblical chap who just happened to make the universe. However you must first believe in order to understand design. But I won't even go there.......I'll probably just end up boring you with a rant. [This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 01-15-2004]
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