Show me the intelligence ...

Not exactly a new topic, but it always seems to get side-tracked.I'll not suggest anything about whether designs CAN come
about without an intelligence, but just ask if someone can
point to what it is about a system (any system) design that
indicates that an intelligence was responsible for it.

Where's Birmongham

It's in the IK in the Wist Modlands

I mon, the good ol' concrete jungle.

Snowflakes and Fingerprints << no intelligent designer required[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-13-2004]

But snowflakes and fingerprints first need a Creation to take place in. So they do need God's design - the Creation.

So you are now a theist evolutionist Mike?

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Common sense isn't

By that reasoning it's not possible for anything, natural or otherwise, to not be designed. Ergo you've proposed an unfalsifiable model.

Perhaps my question is too obtuse.Suppose I found a watch in a field what about the watch
would make one consider it to be the product of an intelligence?

In the case of a watch it would be our knowledge of watches.
If we had no specific knowledge of watches then our knowledge of other manufactured artifacts would be adequate.The "watch" argument then is not a good analogy because we would immediately conclude that a watch was designed for reasons which do not apply to the biological realm.

In a way that's what I was getting at.Is there some feature of a watch (beyond knowing that
watches ARE intelligently designed, or that one could see signs
of tooling) that says it is designed by an intelligence.I wasn't using it as an analogy, but as an example of a known
intelligent design (and whimsically for obvious reasons).Suppose you were an alien coming to a desolate planet and
found a watch. What about the watch would suggest it as
an artifact of an intelligence?

I really think that your question has been posed so that it can't reasonably be answered.Any extraterrestrial with a technology similar to ours would use the second criterion I gave. Any extraterrestrial with a technology so dissimilar from ours that he/she/it would not follow that line of thought is sufficiently alien that I can't even say that it/she/he would conclude that the watch was designed.

But is it wrong?How can you know if a snowflake is designed or not?Maybe the first one was. Maybe the first fingerprint was. The " '73 mustang" was designed, but does that mean every time the particular mustang is made they re-design it? (wiz box is open)How are these things not dependent on a designer, if a designer made everything in the universe?Is unfalsifiable a bad thing?[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 01-14-2004]

Peter's Message 9 of 13 01-14-2004 05:33 AM:"Perhaps my question is too obtuse. Suppose I found a watch in a field what about the watch would make one consider it to be the product of an intelligence?"The example of a watch is too mechanical. Of course an intelligent person would assume such a mechnical device to be produced by an intelligent being.Question for Peter: What if I found an amorphous glob of goo that quivered and pulsed in a field? What about that object would make one consider it to be the product of an intelligence?

Mike:You guys get way too hung-up egotistically, or maybe chauvanistically, assuming on behalf of us amazing humans that just because we're able to manufacture tools, machinery, Mustangs, microwave ovens, and Bic lighters, that therefore there is a mighty mirror image of us upright apes seated on a heavenly throne bringing every marvelous component of our environment into existence by the wave of a magic wand. Oh, and god forbid that the rest of the universe could possible be totally devoid of such a wonderful species as we!Lighten up on the supernatural caffiene intake.Peace, and may the force be with you, homs.[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-14-2004]