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Author | Topic: Discerning Which Definition to Use | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: And you can justify this how? I'll tell you how: every other instance yom is used in conjuction with a number (i.e.: fifth day, second day, etc.) it means a literal day. Have you got a way to tell how it is to be used here literally? because on the 8th day a child was circumcise...there are plenty of verses that state it. If there were verses that stated something different, then the verse would need to be looked at more closely. but there are plenty of verses backing up that children were circumsized on the 8th day.
Luke 1:59And on the eighth day they came to circumcise the young child (John the baptizer) Luke 2:21 Now when eight days came to the full for circumcising him, his name was also called Jesus Philipians 3:4-5 Paul says "If any other man thinks he has grounds for confidence in the flesh, I the more so: 5circumcised the eighth day," These verses give sound reason to conclude that leviticus was to be taken literally. And not only verses, but jewish customs add to the proof of it too. The jews today still circumcise on the 8th day. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Peg writes: we believe this is figurative for darkness and light. Why, Peg. What makes you "believe" this? What qualifies this?
Exodus 18:13 writes: And so it was, on the next day, that Moses sat to judge the people; and the people stood before Moses from morning until evening. Were they standing before Moses for hundred's/thousands of years?
Exodus 27:21 writes: In the tabernacle of meeting, outside the veil which is before the Testimony, Aaron and his sons shall tend it from evening until morning before the LORD. Were they tending it for hundred's/thousands of years? Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Thank you.
Now tell me why we should read Genesis 1 differently since yom is used in the same exact manner. I'm off for now peg. I'll be back in a few hours. I've got to go home and get some sleep. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: Why, Peg. What makes you "believe" this? What qualifies this? because there are figurative uses for evening and morning in the scriptures which are linked to the 7th day of genesis. The Apostle Paul explained that we are living in an 'evening period' and that the morning was approaching
Romans 13:11 "[Do] this, too, because YOU people know the season, that it is already the hour for YOU to awake from sleep, for now our salvation is nearer than at the time when we became believers. 12The night (evening) is well along; the day (morning) has drawn near..." Recall that Paul also mentioned that the 7th creative day was still in progress. We know the jewish day begins in the evening, so we are in the evening of that 7th day and in the above scripture Pauls words show that mankinds salvation is linked with the coming of a new day....the morning. When all that God has purposed for the earth and mankind has come to fruition, then the evening and morning will come to their completion as they did with the previous 6 creative periods. Im not saying ALL instances are figurative. Figurative words are determined by associated scriptures such as the one above where Paul goes deeper into the subject. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: Now tell me why we should read Genesis 1 differently since yom is used in the same exact manner. i guess its because of surrounding verses which use the word figuratively 1. all 6 days are called 1 day showing that the creation account does use a figurative sense of yom. 2. Moses wrote that God was still resting in gen 2:3 3. Hebrews chpt 4 tells us that God is still resting 4. Paul talks about Gods Sabbath 5. there is also the phyical earthly evidence suggesting a very old earth there is too much evidence that suggests otherwise.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:When there are literal meanings for a word and figurative meanings for a word, there are indicators within the language to tell us a figurative meaning is to be chosen. A literal definition usually needs no indicators. Yom is one that needs no indicators for the literal. You have been shown this several times. Leaven is a substance that is used to produce fermentation in dough or liquid. There are no other meanings for the word. It is what it is. Symbolism also goes back to historical background. Leaven was a symbol for hypocrisy, corruption, or evil. It doesn't symbolize that for the general population today. When it comes to symbols and idioms, the scholars have done the research to enable us to understand these types of phrases. There is no way to discern these types of things from the text unless the writer explains it at some point like the writer did for Matthew 16:5-6. The explanation is in verse 12.
Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Again, leaven is not a multiple meaning word. This is not the same type of situation as the word yom.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
What version do you get that from? every one I read uses night and day, figuratively of course.
"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Correct, no figurative meaning is given in the Lexicon. quote:You didn't ask me if the meaning of the verse was literal. you asked: Ok, so will the earth/ge be destroyed according to 2 Peter? quote:Since you asked that question, which has nothing to do with understanding the meaning of the word ge, that tells me that you don't understand the difference between the definition of the word and the meaning of the sentence. The common meaning of the word ge is used and it isn't used figuratively. IOW, there is no figurative technique or language involving the word ge.
quote:I didn't say the verse should be taken figuratively. (That really doesn't mean anything.) In Message 23, I said:
PurpleDawn writes: The writer is saying that the known inhabited land will be destroyed, not the planet. If you feel that ge refers to the planet, then yes the planet will be destroyed. It doesn't matter what any other verse says in the Bible, if you make ge refer to the planet, that's how it reads. There is nothing in the sentence that is figurative concerning ge. No, the verses from the OT don't make a difference. You really don't understand literary techniques. Try reading some of the links I've provided. When you use the correct meaning, the planet isn't destroyed. When you use the wrong meaning, the planet is destroyed. There is figurative language within the verse.
the day of the Lord will come like a thief The heavens will disappear with a roar In verse 11 the writer even says:
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? The author doesn't tell us this is a vision. He is very clear that everything will be destroyed. He is also clear that heaven and earth will be restored or rebuilt. The difference is, I don't assume that ge refers to the planet and you do. From what I have found out the planet was not named at that time. So earth cannot refer to the name of the planet. If you want to argue that point, go to the appropriate thread. (Not The Planet) As far as this thread goes, ge has no figurative definition and the common meaning of earth or land is to be applied in 2 Peter 3:10.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
i guess its because of surrounding verses which use the word figuratively. Yea, in a different context, with different qualifying words. I told you: every other time yom is preceded by a number, it is meaning a literal day. The examples I showed you used it that way and you admitted it meant a literal 24 hour day......except for genesis. Now, what makes genesis 1 so special?
5. there is also the phyical earthly evidence suggesting a very old earth. Let's not go into actual physical extra-biblical evidence, peg. The whole bible story falls apart then. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: There is no way to discern these types of things from the text unless the writer explains it at some point like the writer did for Matthew 16:5-6. The explanation is in verse 12. which is exactly my point. You however claimed that the indicators are located in the sentence alone.In your OP you stated purpledawn writes: Peg, the usage within the sentence tells us which meaning to use. Now are you agreeing with me that other verses help to identify a figurative use?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: What version do you get that from? every one I read uses night and day, figuratively of course. my bible uses night and day as well...the night we know as evening and the morning is day. Likewise genesis says the light is day and the dark is night i'm attempting to show the correlation between Pauls words here in relation to the 7th day.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
purpledawn writes: As far as this thread goes, ge has no figurative definition and the common meaning of earth or land is to be applied in 2 Peter 3:10. as usual you have officially confused me yet again. So tell me, what what do you think 'ge' is according to the verse?
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
hooah212002 writes: Yea, in a different context, with different qualifying words. I told you: every other time yom is preceded by a number, it is meaning a literal day. The examples I showed you used it that way and you admitted it meant a literal 24 hour day......except for genesis. Now, what makes genesis 1 so special? What would you think if genesis 2 was a part of genesis 1? I ask this because the divisions of the bible books were not made by the writer. The book of genesis was not divided by chapters and verses. It was all one piece of writing. This puts the figurative yom of gen 2:4 as a part of the creation account preceeding it. We cannot assume that gen 2 is a different story. It was written as one continuous account originally.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
I'm trying to find the hebrew version because every other version I read has "evening and morning" in genesis, and "night and day" in the verse you mentioned. Kind of a big difference, eh? I can't see that the words are interchangeable.
"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4950 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
from the hebrew interlinear
Gen 1:5andhe-is-calling Elohim totheLIGHT DAY andtotheDARKNESS he-calls NIGHT andhe-is-becoming EVENING andhe-is-becoming MORNING day one (yom echad) Day 2 = Yom sheni = a secondDay 3 = Yom Shelishi = a third Day 4 = Yom Revii = a forth Day 5 = Yom Khamishi = a fifth Day 6 = Yom hashishi = a sixth Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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