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Author Topic:   Star formation
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 1 of 39 (556305)
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Modern science explains the formation of stars from matter (wiki gives a reasonably good explanation Star formation - Wikipedia). There are no requirements for supernatural intervention.
So.. a pretty simple question:
If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them?

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Message 2 of 39 (556319)
04-19-2010 5:49 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Star formation thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 3 of 39 (556321)
04-19-2010 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


killinghurts writes:
If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them?
Let me answer with a question in return:
God could not have created stars through natural means becasue...?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 04-18-2010 11:20 PM killinghurts has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by killinghurts, posted 04-19-2010 11:15 PM Huntard has replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 4 of 39 (556325)
04-19-2010 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


Would you not agree though killing that evolution needs no supernatural intervention for the formation of anything???
The explanation a creationist is going to give you for star formation is the same explanation we (they) will give you for everything else in life, that being God created it initially and now nature runs it's course. Plant formation, the birth of animals and humans, ect...all created originally by God and now running it's natural birth/death course in life. I don't see the hangup for creationists in the star formation scenario.

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 Message 5 by Huntard, posted 04-19-2010 8:06 AM Flyer75 has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 5 of 39 (556326)
04-19-2010 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Flyer75
04-19-2010 7:49 AM


Flyer75 writes:
Would you not agree though killing that evolution needs no supernatural intervention for the formation of anything???
Why would you bring up evolution? We're talking about physics here, not biology.
The explanation a creationist is going to give you for star formation is the same explanation we (they) will give you for everything else in life, that being God created it initially and now nature runs it's course. Plant formation, the birth of animals and humans, ect...all created originally by God and now running it's natural birth/death course in life. I don't see the hangup for creationists in the star formation scenario.
Also a possible explanation. That it's happening naturally now does not mean the "originals" formed naturally as well. Of course, there's no evidence for this, and everything points to the exact opposite, but this is the faith and belief forum, so I guess this one counts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Flyer75, posted 04-19-2010 7:49 AM Flyer75 has replied

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 Message 6 by Flyer75, posted 04-19-2010 8:46 AM Huntard has replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 6 of 39 (556331)
04-19-2010 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Huntard
04-19-2010 8:06 AM


Huntard writes:
Also a possible explanation. That it's happening naturally now does not mean the "originals" formed naturally as well. Of course, there's no evidence for this, and everything points to the exact opposite, but this is the faith and belief forum, so I guess this one counts.
All I'm doing is simply addressing the OP question of if a star can form naturally, where is the need for a God and supernatural creation. I'm just saying, for the creationist, it's simple, maybe not "provable" but simple, God formed the stars, set them in motion and now they form and die on a natural basis, like everything else around us.
I'm not advocating that anyone here has to believe this but the OP wants answers (from creationists it appears) as for the need for a supernatural beginning to stars. I'm applying his question to everything out there, evolution included...why just mention the formation of stars???

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 Message 5 by Huntard, posted 04-19-2010 8:06 AM Huntard has replied

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 Message 7 by Huntard, posted 04-19-2010 8:53 AM Flyer75 has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 7 of 39 (556333)
04-19-2010 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Flyer75
04-19-2010 8:46 AM


Flyer75 writes:
All I'm doing is simply addressing the OP question of if a star can form naturally, where is the need for a God and supernatural creation. I'm just saying, for the creationist, it's simple, maybe not "provable" but simple, God formed the stars, set them in motion and now they form and die on a natural basis, like everything else around us.
Yes,I got that, and I basically agreed with you. I just wanted to poin tout that we don't have any evidence from the real world supporting this. I also stated that since this is the faith and belief forum, this doesn't matter.
I short, I agree with your statement.
I'm not advocating that anyone here has to believe this but the OP wants answers (from creationists it appears) as for the need for a supernatural beginning to stars. I'm applying his question to everything out there, evolution included...why just mention the formation of stars???
Well, I guess the OP thought he had a point where he could say "gotcha, creationists". But we'll have to wait for him to answer. Also, if we were to talk about the origins of everything, this would a far to wide topic But yes, your explanation could fit there as well.
Again, I'll say, I agree with your explanation.

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 Message 6 by Flyer75, posted 04-19-2010 8:46 AM Flyer75 has replied

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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 8 of 39 (556335)
04-19-2010 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Huntard
04-19-2010 8:53 AM


Ahhh...I see. I guess we'll have to wait for the OP to weigh in and see if he has more to add.
I had understood that you agreed with my second point, I just wanted to clarify that using his premise, we can apply a creationist perspective to everything, even evolution, for the theistic evolutionists or gap theorists out there.
Thanks for the clarification Huntard.
Take care

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Peepul
Member (Idle past 5018 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 9 of 39 (556360)
04-19-2010 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


quote:
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
On the usual grounds that people believe that the bible is true.
It's clear looking at these statements that they relate to a primitive understanding of the universe, and could easily have been written by people of that era without intervention of God.
In fact, they are so incomplete that they provide great evidence that they weren't provided by God. God would have known better.
For example :-
* The stars are also great lights - greater than the moon - and yet the bible presents the moon as a great light but not the stars.
* The earth is created before the sun

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 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 04-18-2010 11:20 PM killinghurts has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 10 of 39 (556367)
04-19-2010 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Modern science explains the formation of stars from matter (wiki gives a reasonably good explanation Star formation - Wikipedia). There are no requirements for supernatural intervention.
So.. a pretty simple question:
If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them?
The basic issue here is the same as with most religious claims about natural origins:
Religious claims almost never have anything to do with an explanation of how. Instead, they assert to answer who. The Biblical account regarding star formation (or anything else, including the creation of the Sun, life, etc) very rarely touches on how, and when it does, it's in the most vague sense possible ("God made two lights"). It's about saying "God did it."
This is why most religious claims are completely unfalsifiable, and why religious claims regarding origins are scientifically useless.
It's like explaining the origins of a car by saying "Toyota made it." It tells you nothing of use as to how the car was made.
In the case of star formation, "God did it" fits just as well with naturalistic explanations (since God is proposed to be an omnipotent deity whose actions are indistinguishable from nature, ergo the need for faith, but who is also proposed to be responsible for everything) as with a more "I Dream of Jeannie" magic explanation.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 11 of 39 (556381)
04-19-2010 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


quote:
If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them?
Poor question. You're personifying the Bible. It can't make claims. The priestly writer has passed so he can't change what he wrote. The priestly writer also didn't write a scientific paper, he wrote a religious story. The writer doesn't claim his story is based on "science". The writer is not responsible for what people claim today.
Why do some people today still claim the stars were created by God when science has shown that no supernatural intervention is necessary for their formation?
I think the answer depends on the purpose, just like the priestly writer's story.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 12 of 39 (556402)
04-19-2010 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by purpledawn
04-19-2010 1:50 PM


writers vs. readers.
Poor question. You're personifying the Bible. It can't make claims. The priestly writer has passed so he can't change what he wrote. The priestly writer also didn't write a scientific paper, he wrote a religious story. The writer doesn't claim his story is based on "science". The writer is not responsible for what people claim today.
Why do some people today still claim the stars were created by God when science has shown that no supernatural intervention is necessary for their formation?
I think the answer depends on the purpose, just like the priestly writer's story.
Which is why I have said that one can only understand the significance of the Biblical stories when viewed through the eyes of the writers & not through modern eyes.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 13 of 39 (556424)
04-19-2010 7:36 PM


im sure you'd all agree that within the core of a star is vast amount of energy, so where does all this energy come from?
does hydrogen and helium create itself?
do these gases really just come together on their own in the vastness of space and fuse to form stars?
Creationists do not believe that these elements just appear out of nowhere and start going to work to produce matter. These must have a source and they must be guided in some way. The bible explains that God is the 'source' of all energy in the universe.
Isaiah 40:26 Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? ... Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by hooah212002, posted 04-19-2010 7:49 PM Peg has replied
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 14 of 39 (556426)
04-19-2010 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
04-19-2010 7:36 PM


Isaiah 40:26 writes:
"....not one of them is missing"
That's right folks, every star that EVER was is still there. No supernova, no red giants, no quasars: they are all still there. Man, this bible is a great astrology..er, i mean, astronomy book.
peg, that quote alone should tell you that they were basing it off what they saw, not intrinsic knowledge of the cosmos. They see the stars they see, they say they are all there. Read the words YOU TYPE.
hell, let's look a few lines down:
Isaiah 28 writes:
28Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Looks like you think the earth is flat too, huh? You gonna venture to one side and fall off?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 04-19-2010 7:36 PM Peg has replied

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 15 of 39 (556427)
04-19-2010 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by hooah212002
04-19-2010 7:49 PM


you can read the verse however you like
the fact is that matter is produced by energy and energy does not create itself....if it did we wouldnt need power-plants.

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