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Author | Topic: What exactly is ID? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Son Member (Idle past 4153 days) Posts: 346 From: France,Paris Joined:
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Discussion about information should be taken to a thread specifically to it I think since it seems such a source of great confusion and debate.
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traderdrew Member (Idle past 5477 days) Posts: 379 From: Palm Beach, Florida Joined: |
Sorry about that. I will not do it again here. I was thinking of taking their posts and pasteing them in a thread below where we could have a big fight, but then again...
Apparently the "complex specified information" that I post on this forum isn't always specific. If it was repesented as an analogue in DNA it would probably fail to communicate the information.
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Son Member (Idle past 4153 days) Posts: 346 From: France,Paris Joined:
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I think I didn't make my intentions very clear but if I asked all those questions, it was to have a clear picture of what ID studies. So if you could give me a summary of what you think about it, it would be nice.
Moreover it doesn't contradict Evolution and only adds one mechanism that to it so I fail to see why it's a rival theory to Evolution so maybe I missed something? It also doesn't have the same scale as Evolution, if true, it would only be a part of it.
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traderdrew Member (Idle past 5477 days) Posts: 379 From: Palm Beach, Florida Joined:
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So if you could give me a summary of what you think about it, it would be nice. I would have to think about this if you would want an explanation that is a bit longer than the one I modified off wikipedia below. I am leaving town for a little while. Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by the involvement of (at least one) intelligence.
Moreover it doesn't contradict Evolution and only adds one mechanism that to it so I fail to see why it's a rival theory to Evolution so maybe I missed something? I think some people reject it because of its religious implications and/or they are not thinking rationally about their demarcation argument. I think the first reason would explain the second.
It also doesn't have the same scale as Evolution, if true, it would only be a part of it. I believe it has the same scale as the evidence of the fossil record would tell us. There are periods in the fossil record that show us some patterns that suggest design. Such as the hypothesis of an infusion of information into organisms during the Cambrian era. An example might be the introduction of lysyl oxidase into organisms. (If I didn't post this last sentence, you would see someone who would attempt to equivocate my last comment or spin off of it with an off topic post.) Edited by traderdrew, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18059 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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quote: I told you that there aren't any known examples, so how can I show you one ? So I am going to ask again. Before you ask for evidence that CSI can evolve, wouldn't it be a good idea to find an example of CSI in biology ? There's no need to account for something that doesn't exist.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2430 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Intelligent design is the assertion that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by the involvement of (at least one) intelligence.
You are correct--intelligent design is an assertion. That assertion is based on a religious belief, or a world view stemming from a religious belief. Intelligent design is not a scientific field, as there is nothing to investigate--the conclusion is already known! There is no way to move from a dataset to empirical knowledge because that concluding "empirical knowledge" has already been asserted. And further, nothing that contradicts that conclusion will be entertained. All of these are the antithesis of science, but characteristic of religious apologetics. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Luweewu Junior Member (Idle past 5609 days) Posts: 8 From: Aus Joined:
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Greetings
Intelligent design is to me fundamental in the understanding of reality.Why ? Questions that are orphaned by randomness or 'creationism' are answered by it. How can creationism be orphaned by ID? Simple. The laws. Religious creationism requires laws to be 'worked within' by a god of that religion. Gods of religion can create worlds. But not worlds that that do not maintain their structure without the laws. Where do the laws come from.? They have always existed.. no? But, If bang theory is correct. They came to be ballanced and true. Ready to produce an 'evolutionary' crop of stars that would result in life and anti-entropic complex systems. Such ballance does not just 'appear from nowhere' [does it evolve?] Einstien said imagination is a far more powerfull tool in understanding reality than intelligence.I will use it.. Reality, the observed universe, seems a thing designed with a set of laws. Those laws we know the effect of but not the cause. Gravity and space are still mystery. As is the plastic nature of time as revealed by special relativity. We know very little and thus it is hard to encompass the nature of our reality in mind.. I try. I hope you do as well.. this is why we are here. Luwee---------edit The 40 years of thinking simply means i have found more interesting questions than what burger tastes best. Edited by Luweewu, : No reason given. Edited by Luweewu, : No reason given.
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Luweewu Junior Member (Idle past 5609 days) Posts: 8 From: Aus Joined:
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Coyote
Assertion based of religious belief? false premis.You assume that ID is based only in the lowest form of fiction. Why? [i know well why as do you. We as human beings cannot fail, to wish one thing, purpose. Even though it is a creation of manipulators. They are good at their craft.] Understand.. my 'bar of belief is ruthless' I do not gain empirical knowledge from the 'one book' But from experience of the one reality i exist in, and process through the machinery of mind i have made. This is what 'empirical' means. All the best Luwee Edited by Luweewu, : No reason given.
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Luweewu Junior Member (Idle past 5609 days) Posts: 8 From: Aus Joined:
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Trader
Fossils? What have fossils to do with the structure of reality?
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2430 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Assertion based of religious belief? false premis. Actually that is based on careful observation. ID is not science. It is not taught in science classes in the universities--except in religious institutions. It is supported almost entirely by creationist websites, many of which are only thinly disguised, and by creationists "scientists" who are just pretending to do science. ID has been found to be religion by a Federal District Court (Dover). The "cdesign proponentsists" editing of The Panda's Thumb is the smoking gun. Source You assume that ID is based only in the lowest form of fiction. No, I assume--with a lot of evidence--that it is based on religious belief, and is being disguised in a dishonest attempt to sneak religion back into the schools under the mantle of "science." Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Luweewu Junior Member (Idle past 5609 days) Posts: 8 From: Aus Joined:
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Coyote
I cannot agree.I suggest ID is to you a way of discrediting a fiction called religion. And in the doing the really interesting stuff is thrown out with the dishwater. I understand well this stance. How do we live with the idiocy of the "i want it to be so" Luwee----edit Science cannot even desribe time dilation to kids in school. When they would best understand this 'science'. Few even know what science means. I taught my child everything i knew at the time.. She is now a child psychologist..lol Edited by Luweewu, : science
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Larni Member (Idle past 177 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Science cannot even desribe time dilation to kids in school. But that is a subject for higher education for that very reason. ABE: welcome to EvC! Edited by Larni, : Welcome
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
If you know of one then post it and I will study it. Someone debating you ... says that there are no examples of a certain thing ... and you reply by asking him to provide an example ... of the thing that he says doesn't exist. This is ... odd.
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Luweewu Junior Member (Idle past 5609 days) Posts: 8 From: Aus Joined:
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Larni
Thanks. And yes it is. I hope there is not too much 'specialisation'After all, one of our biggest snafu's is putting things in boxes. I describe myself as a specialising non-specialist. You cant talk about sysytem X without including system Y. Everything is connection. Luwee------edit think of the vienna circle , can you imagine Carnap telling Godel to keep 'on topic' ------edit Higher? my daughter @10 understood it. Edited by Luweewu, : clarification Edited by Luweewu, : ?
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Luweewu Junior Member (Idle past 5609 days) Posts: 8 From: Aus Joined:
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Coyote
I was not putting you down brother.. I agree. Religion and it's 'ways' are limmited at best and true evil at it;s worst, As is any human creed. We live in a new rennaisance, and that means we dont know what the **** is going on. Now. The thread is ID. Time to get back to that topic Edited by Luweewu, : Back on topic
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