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Author Topic:   Not enough room in DNA
jpatterson
Junior Member (Idle past 5086 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 04-12-2010


Message 1 of 139 (555192)
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


The human genome contains approximately 800 megabytes of information (How many gigabytes or terabytes of data is in the human genome?, How many bits are in the human genome? - Everything2.com). About the same as a small hard drive or, put another way, something on the order of 200 volumes of text. Does anyone seriously believe that every last detail of human anatomy (from toenails to hair), physiology, and supposedly genetically determined behavior could fit in 200 textbooks? I think not. The genome is, supposedly, the mechanism of evolution. If this mechanism isn't valid, if there's not enough room on the DNA, then evolution collapses. We don't just have a designer, we have a CREATOR.
Edited by jpatterson, : Per suggestions of admin.

Replies to this message:
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AdminSlev
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 03-28-2010


Message 2 of 139 (555199)
04-12-2010 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


Hi Jpatterson,
This could be an interesting subject to discuss. However, you will have to elaborate it more before I promote it.
- Where did you get the '800' megabytes information ? You have to cite your source.
- Does this relate to the Cre/Evo/ID debate ? If so, it would be great if you could say how.
- You should develop your own position on the subject as clearly as possible. Others who will reply will do the same and want to be able to know what you think about all this.
You can just 'edit' your text with the lower-right button on your post. Once this is done send my a private message and I will come and see if it is ready to be promoted.

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jpatterson
Junior Member (Idle past 5086 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 04-12-2010


Message 3 of 139 (555218)
04-12-2010 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminSlev
04-12-2010 4:01 PM


Thanks
I have edited my original post per your suggestion.

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AdminSlev
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 03-28-2010


Message 4 of 139 (555280)
04-12-2010 11:39 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Not enough room in DNA thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 5 of 139 (555282)
04-12-2010 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


Does anyone seriously believe that every last detail of human anatomy (from toenails to hair), physiology, and supposedly genetically determined behavior could fit in 200 textbooks?
Yes.
Would you like to argue for the contrary, or would you just like to pretend that just because you don't believe something, it can't be true?

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 6 of 139 (555284)
04-12-2010 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


jpatterson writes:
If this mechanism isn't valid, if there's not enough room on the DNA, then evolution collapses.
You have a good topic. However, it does not present the problem for evolution that you think it poses. It is pretty well understood that the DNA is not a blueprint for the organism, but is more of a blueprint for a set of development processes out of which the organism arises.
The real implication of this is that environment plays a substantial role in forming an organism, and that DNA is only part of the story. The importance of environment has long been recognized. The case of thalidomide babies illustrates the importance of the environment.
Limitations in the size of the DNA perhaps create a problem for rationalist philosophers, who like to assume a considerable amount of innate knowledge. But they are not a problem for evolution.

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 7 of 139 (555285)
04-13-2010 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


Let's set aside for the moment that you have zero understanding of how DNA functions, and explore the ramifications of your position.
We'll pretend that you're correct, that DNA doesn't have "enough room" for the "information" it takes to grow a human being. What are you suggesting, that some creator steps in for each and every human being and tinkers with the process, filling in missing information? If so, wouldn't the presence of birth defects suggest that this creator is rather incompetent? In fact, just the fact that he needs to tinker with the process every single time shows he's not very good with big picture stuff. What about the fact that somewhere between 25-50% of all pregnancies spontaneously abort? This creator of yours is running a real cluster fuck.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 8 of 139 (555293)
04-13-2010 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


Complexity is as complexity does.
Does anyone seriously believe that every last detail of human anatomy (from toenails to hair), physiology, and supposedly genetically determined behavior could fit in 200 textbooks?
The Mandelbrot set is defined by the iterative equation:
Z(n+1) <-- evolution.

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


(1)
Message 9 of 139 (555299)
04-13-2010 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


Hi Jpatterson,
I'll answer something similar to Theodoric, albeit a bit more friendly . You will get straight and sharp answers here, but don't worry everybody is cool when you learn to stick around.
Now off to the question. You are asking if all the information to grow a human can be comprised in our DNA. If we answer yes, then of course the discussion pretty much ends here.
Now if we answer no, then it leads to other questions. Where does the rest of the 'needed' information come from ? If you answer with ''God'', then as Theodoric mentioned you are effectively saying that God personnally intrudes his own established laws of nature, and comes add whatever needs to be added at the right time to complete the lacks in he DNA. Now this option is impossible to rule out (since it involves proving ''God never ...'' which is a universal negative ie. impossible to prove), however, it does not mean this is the correct avenue to take.
The other possibility is that the missing information comes from somewhere else, another biological storage for example. But if you want to propose something like this, then you need to identify which part, how it does this exactly and how this renders evolution of species impossible.

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 10 of 139 (555307)
04-13-2010 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


Hi J Patterson, and welcome to EvC,
Does anyone seriously believe that every last detail of human anatomy (from toenails to hair), physiology, and supposedly genetically determined behavior could fit in 200 textbooks?
No, no-one believes that. The genome does not even specify things like how exactly your blood vessels are routed, or how precisely the connections of the optic nerve are arranged between your eyes and your brains. What it contains are the mechanisms (note: mechanisms - not information, not instructions) that allow a human body to grow under the circumstances in which it grows.
Take a gene that codes for a protein - the major part of the genome that we understand - the genome only produces the sequence of amino acids within that protein, the three-dimensional structure of the protein and the way in which it interacts with its ligands is provided not by the genome* but by the laws of Chemistry and Physics.
The genome is, supposedly, the mechanism of evolution. If this mechanism isn't valid, if there's not enough room on the DNA, then evolution collapses. We don't just have a designer, we have a CREATOR.
Are you suggesting that God continually tampers with the biology of every organism on earth in order to make it work?
* - actually it's a bit more complicated than that.

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


(1)
Message 11 of 139 (555309)
04-13-2010 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


DNA is a recipe, not a blueprint
A recipe for a cake contains (let's suppose) approximately 650 bytes of information, comprising about a quarter of a page of text. Do you seriously believe that every last detail of the structure of a cake (from the hardness of the crust to the size and position of each and every bubble of carbon dioxide) could fit in a few paragraphs? We do not just have a pastry chef, fortunately we have physics and chemistry as well.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 12 of 139 (555366)
04-13-2010 9:33 AM


Life is chemistry. In chemistry you can get something this complex:
From a molecule as simple as this:
Perhaps the author of OP should think about this for a second.

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 13 of 139 (555372)
04-13-2010 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taq
04-13-2010 9:33 AM


Physics, not chemistry
Actually, that's an example of physics.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 14 of 139 (555395)
04-13-2010 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jpatterson
04-12-2010 3:39 PM


Show Me The Math
Your argument seems to be based on the idea that the information in the human genome is just too small to define the complexity of a human being.
Well, show me the math. Specifically, I should like to see you figure out how large it would have to be to do so. Once you have done so, then you can complain that the human genome is smaller than the figure that you've arrived at. Until then, I think you're just blowing smoke.
You're offering up an argument which by its very nature is quantitative, but you haven't showed us any actual math.
---
This is a perennial problem with creationist arguments. For example, they tell me that if evolution was a fact, then we would have found more intermediate forms than we have. And then I ask them two things:
(1) Please would you do the math and tell me how many intermediate forms we would have found if evolution was a fact?
(2) Do you have any idea how many intermediate forms have been found?
Now, your argument is slightly less bogus in that you can answer the equivalent of question (2) --- you do know how large the human genome is. But you're nowhere on the equivalent of question (1), because you haven't provided a shred of a scintilla of an iota of reasoning to say how big the human genome should be. You just say that however big it is, it should be bigger than that.
---
On the theological questions that your post raises, I associate myself with slevesque. Why should God make the world so badly that he needs to tinker with it and prop it up every time a zygote grows to become a child? Wouldn't a smart God make a universe that actually works?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 15 of 139 (555398)
04-13-2010 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Parasomnium
04-13-2010 9:44 AM


Re: Physics, not chemistry
Actually, that's an example of physics.
In the same way that life is physics. The tertiary form that proteins adopt is due to the physical interactions between the amino acids in the peptide in a given environment. Whether or not a protein binds to a given section of DNA is determined by it's amino acid sequence and the environment (e.g. the lac operon in E. coli).

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