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Author Topic:   What is the I in ID?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 76 of 165 (118766)
06-25-2004 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
06-25-2004 4:09 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
jar
God says let there be light and there was light.
So by this you are stating that God simply speaks and things happen? So his voice does what that causes the energy levels of electrons to now have the ability to emit light? How did he see or hear?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 4:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 6:21 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 77 of 165 (118770)
06-25-2004 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by pink sasquatch
06-25-2004 5:21 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
pink sasquatch
"an entity who does things without a means to do so".
Now that is a disappointing statement from you since that is a contradiction in terms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by pink sasquatch, posted 06-25-2004 5:21 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by pink sasquatch, posted 06-25-2004 7:01 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 165 (118771)
06-25-2004 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by sidelined
06-25-2004 6:17 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
Actually, what I said was "Let there be Light". I don't think you can say "God said" or imply it was voice beyond the figurative level.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 6:17 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 6:29 PM jar has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 79 of 165 (118778)
06-25-2004 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
06-25-2004 6:21 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
jar
I am sorry I thought you were quoting Genesis 1:3.If it was figuritive then just why is this description there at all? Why not simply end it with God created the heavens and the Earth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 6:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 6:36 PM sidelined has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 165 (118785)
06-25-2004 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by sidelined
06-25-2004 6:29 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
As I have said, I believe that GOD created the basic rules. We really don't know them yet but constantly learn more as we gather knowledge and observations.
I don't believe that GOD created the heavens and the earth. Rather, they are the evolved product of whatever rules he did create. One goal of Religion, IMHO, is to work to try to understand the mind of GOD. That can be done by learning the HOW involved in what we see. But that is only the HOW part.
The WHY is the other part of religion and there we may find even greater challenges.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 6:29 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 7:01 PM jar has replied
 Message 116 by lfen, posted 07-29-2004 1:25 AM jar has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 81 of 165 (118796)
06-25-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
06-25-2004 6:36 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
jar
One goal of Religion, IMHO, is to work to try to understand the mind of GOD. That can be done by learning the HOW involved in what we see. But that is only the HOW part.
That is fine but in order to understand the mind of God we need to establish just what that mind is.Is it an existing process of thought and,if so, we must understand how or even if such a thing exists.If it is like our own then it is the result of bioelectical processes. What are we meaning by mind then if not the same thing as we humans experience.
I do not have a difficulty with your position I have a difficulty with the assumptions that you make without explanation of how those assumptions may lead up to something which we can test.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 6:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 7:02 PM sidelined has replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 82 of 165 (118797)
06-25-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by sidelined
06-25-2004 6:20 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
pink sasquatch writes:
god = "an entity who does things without a means to do so."
sidelined writes:
Now that is a disappointing statement from you since that is a contradiction in terms.
The contradiction is exactly my point. I'm not saying it's logical - but is it logical to hold an entity outside of existence to any sort of rules we can conceive of? Why not define a god as one who can create and manipulate without cause and effect?
So I'll ask again:
Why would an omnipotent god be bound by material laws?
Is a god itself material? Is a god biological? Is a god made up of atoms, or strings?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 6:20 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 7:09 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 165 (118798)
06-25-2004 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by sidelined
06-25-2004 7:01 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
We won't be able to test it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 7:01 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 7:14 PM jar has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 84 of 165 (118802)
06-25-2004 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by pink sasquatch
06-25-2004 7:01 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
pink sasquatch
Why would an omnipotent god be bound by material laws?
If he is not bound by material laws the question then becomes how did he manipulate the material universe into existence.You see it makes no sense to claim that the universe was created if we do not also lend an explanation as to how that creation was accomplished.You can say that an omnipotent God is not bound by material laws only if he never interacts with those laws, including their establishment.
Otherwise his omnipotence is in question is it not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by pink sasquatch, posted 06-25-2004 7:01 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by pink sasquatch, posted 06-25-2004 7:18 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 85 of 165 (118807)
06-25-2004 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
06-25-2004 7:02 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
jar
Then we can say nothing about it.It will never rise beyond speculation and can have no reality greater than that of fairies or Jinnis.I find that to be a personal waste of time but,hey, I have been known to waste my time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 7:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 7:16 PM sidelined has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 165 (118809)
06-25-2004 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by sidelined
06-25-2004 7:14 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
I agree.
ID is religion. I have never said anything other than that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 7:14 PM sidelined has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 87 of 165 (118810)
06-25-2004 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by sidelined
06-25-2004 7:09 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
Hopefully you realize that I'm playing devil's advocate to some extent here - I think jar's last message stating "we can't test it" perhaps summed things up more simply.
God seems to be that which cannot test, or understand.
You can say that an omnipotent God is not bound by material laws only if he never interacts with those laws, including their establishment.
I feel like this is a statement based on our material framework. If we can't test or understand God, how do we know that he is incapable of creating a system he isn't bound by?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 7:09 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 7:29 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 88 of 165 (118818)
06-25-2004 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by pink sasquatch
06-25-2004 7:18 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
pink sasquatch
I feel like this is a statement based on our material framework. If we can't test or understand God, how do we know that he is incapable of creating a system he isn't bound by?
Exactly. But if we give the assumption that we cannot test or understand we are left with empty explanation and not even a basis for faith. If he cannot interact with the world then we cannot even have a hint at his existence and therefore are contemplating the existence of what?
If he is capable of interacting with the universe that does not bind him a test could be performed to try and establish the means by which he does so.
Anyway I have enjoyed going over this with you and I hope to continue it in the near future but for now my computer will be offline till Wednesday. Take care and stay hungry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by pink sasquatch, posted 06-25-2004 7:18 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by pink sasquatch, posted 06-27-2004 5:19 PM sidelined has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 89 of 165 (119272)
06-27-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by sidelined
06-25-2004 7:29 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
then we cannot even have a hint at his existence and therefore are contemplating the existence of what?
Hence, "faith".
I think this is an underlying (negative) issue with most discussions around here: some arguing "the testable" with an opposition that is arguing "that which is untestable".
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the concept of testing for something that interacts with the universe on solely supernatural terms.
As a side-note, I'm perusing a book on Kabbalistic stories and OT interpretations - in that the interpretation of the act of creation is "fanning an ember", with that ember symbolizing humankind's unique "awareness". A different take on 'let there be light'...
I've enjoyed the discussion, too...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by sidelined, posted 06-25-2004 7:29 PM sidelined has not replied

  
Frings
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 165 (119995)
06-29-2004 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
06-25-2004 2:36 PM


Re: Evidence You Can't See
That's the kind of things that GODs do.
So how exactly do we define a God? It seemes pretty clear to some
people what a God can and cannot do. I don't have a clue what a Gods possible limitations could be though, other than the old "create a stone so heavy he can't lift it himself" and things like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 06-25-2004 2:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 06-29-2004 3:09 PM Frings has not replied

  
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