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Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: What is the I in ID? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
God says let there be light and there was light. So by this you are stating that God simply speaks and things happen? So his voice does what that causes the energy levels of electrons to now have the ability to emit light? How did he see or hear?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
pink sasquatch
"an entity who does things without a means to do so". Now that is a disappointing statement from you since that is a contradiction in terms.
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jar Member (Idle past 395 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually, what I said was "Let there be Light". I don't think you can say "God said" or imply it was voice beyond the figurative level.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
I am sorry I thought you were quoting Genesis 1:3.If it was figuritive then just why is this description there at all? Why not simply end it with God created the heavens and the Earth?
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jar Member (Idle past 395 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
As I have said, I believe that GOD created the basic rules. We really don't know them yet but constantly learn more as we gather knowledge and observations.
I don't believe that GOD created the heavens and the earth. Rather, they are the evolved product of whatever rules he did create. One goal of Religion, IMHO, is to work to try to understand the mind of GOD. That can be done by learning the HOW involved in what we see. But that is only the HOW part. The WHY is the other part of religion and there we may find even greater challenges. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
One goal of Religion, IMHO, is to work to try to understand the mind of GOD. That can be done by learning the HOW involved in what we see. But that is only the HOW part. That is fine but in order to understand the mind of God we need to establish just what that mind is.Is it an existing process of thought and,if so, we must understand how or even if such a thing exists.If it is like our own then it is the result of bioelectical processes. What are we meaning by mind then if not the same thing as we humans experience. I do not have a difficulty with your position I have a difficulty with the assumptions that you make without explanation of how those assumptions may lead up to something which we can test.
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6023 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
pink sasquatch writes: god = "an entity who does things without a means to do so." sidelined writes: Now that is a disappointing statement from you since that is a contradiction in terms. The contradiction is exactly my point. I'm not saying it's logical - but is it logical to hold an entity outside of existence to any sort of rules we can conceive of? Why not define a god as one who can create and manipulate without cause and effect? So I'll ask again: Why would an omnipotent god be bound by material laws? Is a god itself material? Is a god biological? Is a god made up of atoms, or strings?
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jar Member (Idle past 395 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
We won't be able to test it.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
pink sasquatch
Why would an omnipotent god be bound by material laws? If he is not bound by material laws the question then becomes how did he manipulate the material universe into existence.You see it makes no sense to claim that the universe was created if we do not also lend an explanation as to how that creation was accomplished.You can say that an omnipotent God is not bound by material laws only if he never interacts with those laws, including their establishment. Otherwise his omnipotence is in question is it not?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
jar
Then we can say nothing about it.It will never rise beyond speculation and can have no reality greater than that of fairies or Jinnis.I find that to be a personal waste of time but,hey, I have been known to waste my time.
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jar Member (Idle past 395 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I agree.
ID is religion. I have never said anything other than that. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6023 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
Hopefully you realize that I'm playing devil's advocate to some extent here - I think jar's last message stating "we can't test it" perhaps summed things up more simply.
God seems to be that which cannot test, or understand.
You can say that an omnipotent God is not bound by material laws only if he never interacts with those laws, including their establishment. I feel like this is a statement based on our material framework. If we can't test or understand God, how do we know that he is incapable of creating a system he isn't bound by?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5909 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
pink sasquatch
I feel like this is a statement based on our material framework. If we can't test or understand God, how do we know that he is incapable of creating a system he isn't bound by? Exactly. But if we give the assumption that we cannot test or understand we are left with empty explanation and not even a basis for faith. If he cannot interact with the world then we cannot even have a hint at his existence and therefore are contemplating the existence of what?If he is capable of interacting with the universe that does not bind him a test could be performed to try and establish the means by which he does so. Anyway I have enjoyed going over this with you and I hope to continue it in the near future but for now my computer will be offline till Wednesday. Take care and stay hungry.
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pink sasquatch Member (Idle past 6023 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: |
then we cannot even have a hint at his existence and therefore are contemplating the existence of what? Hence, "faith". I think this is an underlying (negative) issue with most discussions around here: some arguing "the testable" with an opposition that is arguing "that which is untestable". I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the concept of testing for something that interacts with the universe on solely supernatural terms. As a side-note, I'm perusing a book on Kabbalistic stories and OT interpretations - in that the interpretation of the act of creation is "fanning an ember", with that ember symbolizing humankind's unique "awareness". A different take on 'let there be light'... I've enjoyed the discussion, too...
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Frings Inactive Member |
That's the kind of things that GODs do. So how exactly do we define a God? It seemes pretty clear to somepeople what a God can and cannot do. I don't have a clue what a Gods possible limitations could be though, other than the old "create a stone so heavy he can't lift it himself" and things like that.
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