You mean you didn't withdraw fellowship?
Its never wrong to discuss the scriptures wih a brother wayward or otherwise
Baptizo meaning dip, plunge or sumerge.
Baptism is an act preformed by someone on a particular subject. All the faith that is required is that the idiot doing the baptism won't hold you under the water until you drown.
Baptism ICANT, is a type and part of belief, its all the samething.
With every breath ICANT you demonstrate your lackof understanding of Gods word,atleast in this regard. Abrahams deeds were acts of faith, becaueGod askdhin to do them, they were not works on his behalf to save himself. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. How in gthe world could Abrahams belief in God been counted as righteousness if at every turn he reputiated and disregarded Gods wishes. This statment was made after long experiences with God and his wishes for him. Doing Gods bidding whatever it is ICANT is simply faith in action. the physicaldetails of baptism areaformality, itis our obediencein obeying the commandin Matt 28, Mark 16 andacts 2:38, that etablishes our believe as BELIEF. Its not simply a mental exercise on some specific point about Jesus.
the devils believe mentally in jesus as the son of God. but their belief is not demonstrated through obedience to do ALL CHRIST has commanded to be saved. Had jesus never said, "he that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED, shall be saved". You might have a case. As it stands you do not have a case because he requires by his own words, more than a mental exercise.
In truth your unscriptural explanation of belief would include even the DEVILS as children of God, if all that is required is a simple mental exercise, that Jesus is the Son of God. "You are the Holy one come from God, have you come to punish us before our time"
Belief that Jesus is the Son of God is certainly a requirement, but it is not the only passage concerning what Christ requires. Jesus certainly knew this when gave the qualifications for being saved. Now watch carefully ICANT. If one does not BELIEVE, he certainly is not going to be baptized, THEREFORE HIS BELIEVF IS NO BELIEF AT ALL, like the demons. But according to your doctrine, they dont even need to repent, confess and be baptized, because the are already saved simply by acknowledging him as the son of God, which they did
Now watch. Belief is only belief if it is OBEDIENT to all God requires on any given subject. You can continue if you wish to down grade the purpose ofBaptism from which Christ exalted it in Mark 16:16, with your philosophizing on the latter part of the verse. Ive already explained by illustration, logic and scripture,(in the explanation of belief ), why Christ only mentions belief in the latter part of the verse. It would be redundant and silly for him to repeat both, when the latter (baptism) requires the former belief. this is exacally why he does not repeat it. Not because its not necessay, because he JUST SAID IT WAS, BUT BECAUSE belief is only belief if it is activeto Gods wishes, past a mental exercise.
If the opposite of saved is NOT UNSAVED, please tell me what it is?
How can one become a child of God and not obey ALL that he requires to become a child of God?
Did Jesus make belief and baptism a requirement prior to being saved in Mark 16:16
Can one be scripturally baptized without believing in Christ?
If not, isnt baptism as set out in mark 16:16, just another exercising of our faith to the obedience to Gods commands? Christ makes baptism equivilant to belief, they are one and the same.
now listen to the Apostle Paul
Romans 10
The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,d that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentilethe same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Confession here is represented as both a mental exercise and a physical act, literally. But in essense its all just faith. But one can not have an actual Faith without obeying Gods commands and wishes, before during or after.
"We are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. here he shows what faith is suppose to be in response to Gods wishes. notice how each of these verses ECHOES Mark 16:16. they are parallel in substance and character to his WISHES IN mark 16:16.
"therefore we are buried with Christ in Baptism, that like as Christ rose, we also rise to walk a newness of life"
EMA writes:
Belief, it is, an active living faith, of which are baptism, confession, repentance and faithfulness.
Belief is to accept that something is a fact.
Do the devils do this?
Baptism is the immersion of a born again child of God by the authority of a scriptural New Testament Church.
If here you mean that all this happens simultaneoulsly as Christ illustrated in that passage, then i agree, but it cant happen without obeying his wishes
Confession is a public announcment that you have received Christ as your personal savior.
Repentence is turning from your evil ways.
Faithfulness is following Jesus where ever He leads.
I agree
EMA writes:
Christ said "if you deny me before men I will deny you before my father in heaven, but if you confess (that is actively do this act of faith), I will confess you before my father in heaven."
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
He did not say "if you". He said, "whosoever shall deny me before men".
So WHOSEVER in John 3:16 doesnt mean anybody and everbody or YOU?
Why didn't Jesus say Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, and is baptized, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven?
For the same reason that belief and repentance are not mentioned in the same verse, that is not what he is talking about in that instant. But the rest of the scriptures will clue you in as to what is required in the are a of belief, repentance and baptism
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Why didn't John say: he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God and been baptized?
Because he is using belief in this instance as a synechtoche a figure of speech meaning apart for the whole or a whole for the part . Belief preeceeds any wishes tha god may have for us other wise. but if we dont believe in him in the first place, OF WHAT USE IS REPENTANCE, BAPTISM CONFESSION, ETC.
here is an example of a synechtoche. Paul said " For we know in part and we prophecy in part, but when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall fanish away"
Paul here uses 2 of the spiritual gifts, miraculous knowledge and prophecy to represent ALL THE GIFTS. IOW, he is saying all the miraculous gifts will fanish, but he uses two to represent them all, a part for the whole
When the Bible speaks about faith it is including all aspects of the details, the whole for the part. Or when 'one' is referenced like confession, it is including of course all aspects of faith,the part for the whole. its all just Faith. but one cannot be obedient by and in faith without obeying his wishes, before during or after
John in John 3:18 said: "He that believeth on him is not condemned"
I agree with every point of the above statement. here faith or belief is represented to mean the TOTALITY of what he requires. because faith or belief is a prerequisit to anyother aspect it is often used to signify all of the aspects Christ requires, as in mark 16.
Now if one wishes to argue that mark 16:16 is not genuine, then that is another story.
I think I am in pretty good company when I say all a person has to do to be saved is accept the offer of a free full pardon that God has offered to all mankind.
Wouldnt you rather be in the company of Christ that gave the requirements for salvation
If I understand what you are saying you believe you have to believe the facts about Jesus, you have to make a public profession, you have to repent, and be baptized in order to be saved. And if one of those is missing you are still lost. You can correct me on this if it is not correct.
You equate belief with faith and they are two different things.
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
This is interesting you say faith is different from belief , then quote a verse that uses them interchagably. see how he equates the two words. While the words can be used interchangably, the stronger of the words is faith. All faith is belief, but not all belief is faith
In order to be saved you must believe that God is and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. This is the only active part you have in your salvation. In other words you have to accept Gods offer of the gift of eternal life.
You say something short of what Christ said. trust me if he hadnt said it I wouldnt believe it, i would have no reason to believe itif he hant ssid it
[qs]You are not saved by your faith but by the Faith of Jesus Christ.
I submit the following verses as evidence.
Romans 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Gods righteousness imparted to them that believe by faith of Jesus Christ.
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Justified by His grace through Christ.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.
We have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The promise given to those that believe by the faith of Jesus Christ. Not even your faith.
So now man doesnt even have to believe
Conclusions:
1. Eternal life is a gift of God. It can not be earned, or bought only accepted.
2. Eternal life is by the faith of Jesus Christ.
To all those who believe.
3. The only part mankind has in his salvation is accepting God's gift of eternal life.
John 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one.
I believe that every person who has accepted God's offer of eternal life and been born of the Holy Spirit will follow Jesus as He said.
To begin to follow Jesus we must be baptized.
Neither Jesus words or the rest of the NT support your order here
To follow Jesus we must be active in His Church.
To follow Jesus we must remain faithful unto death as He did.
I believe that anyone who has truly been born again will do these things.
With this part I agree
EMA writes:
Christ as God and the son of God had the right to do with the sins of people as he wished. He gave this right to the Apostles, because he knew they would be speaking through the Spirit and by his inspiration.
Jesus came to do the will of the Father and that was to die for the sins of the world. John 3:16
Jesus gave the Apostles no such authority. The Apostles could not die for someones sins and neither could they forgive their sins.
Did you miss the part here where I said they would be speaking through the Spirit, which is God, thus God was still forgiving their sins, but he was using the Apostles as an agent. I am not implying that a catholic priest has this authority today, because they do NOT have the same authority and power as did the Apostles, as they claim
EMA writes:
If you think Iam being to nit picky about salvation, I can only quote what is written.
You don't quote what is written. You say what you want to be written or what you have been told is written.
I would love to see you quote what is written without adding your bias.
Ok. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"
EMA writes:
Am I telling you or someone they will be damned, no I am telling you that it appears that one must be baptized to be saved.
You sure could have fooled me by all the references you made to the fact that if a person was not baptized they were not saved. That it was necessary for a person to be saved.
You have been taught you have to be baptized in order to be saved. So why does it now begin to appear that it was (is) necessary for a person to be saved.
No all I am telling you is that I am not God and it appears that the opposite of saved is not saved. If you have another biblical explanation of saved that is NOT SAVED, Im all ears. But even after this, it is still not me condemning someone, I have no such right. I can only tell you what the passage says
The problem is there is no verse in the Bible that says it is necessary to be baptized in order to receive eternal life.
If this is how you want to read passages in the Bible, specificallly ones like Mark 16:16, that is your choice I simply dont see how he could have made it any simpler. I asked jaywill, Ill ask you. If Jesus wanted someone to know that baptism was necessary to be saved, what other words coulld he have chosen to make it any simpler. Give me those words
Eternal life is a gift of God and when a person hears the Word of God and the Spirit convicts them of that fact they can then accept the gift or reject the gift, their choice.
Now don't get me wrong baptism is very important. You cannot be a member of the Lords Church without scriptural baptism. You can not be in the Bride of Christ without scriptural baptism. That would exclude a person from a lot of rewards and blessings, as the Bride is going to live in the New Jerusalem which has 12 gates for those on the outside to go in and out of.
Here again you make a distinction you do not fully understand. On e is a member of the Lords body or church by Christs blood, one becomes a member of the Church by obeying the gospel, of which belief and baptism are a part. I want you to read the following verses and see if you see any simularity between Jesus wishes in Mark 1:16 and Pauls words in Romans 6.
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Here Paul explains in nearly exact detail the nature and purpose of baptism. Christ commanded it and Paul explains it. It is where God has decided we MEET the blood of Christ. Baptism is more than just a symbolism, as indicated by Acts 2:38 and passages as this one above. Nearly ever passage having to do with baptism will reflect what Mark 16:16, designates as a way to be saved.
We go in the water or grave a old man and come out a new creature, its not just symbolism. "We have been UNITED (literally) with him like this in his death, we will certainly be united with him in his ressurection"
In conclusion, let me say that I do not believe a person needs to KNOW absolutley that baptism is for the remission of sins for the baptism to effective. God only requires that we be baptized in a response to the Gospel, believing that Jesus is the Son of God. It is a different story to say that one needs to know that it is for the remission of sins verses the fact that it is NOT required as becoming a child of God in the first place. The latter is a whole different intimation
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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