Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are there evolutionary reasons for reproduction?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 93 of 136 (560439)
05-15-2010 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by dennis780
05-13-2010 10:17 PM


all gametes great and small
Just in case the other attempts didn't sink in:
At some given point in history, organisms must have made a switch to male/female reproduction.
Some organisms yes, not all.
Since each sex would have needed to evolve at the same time
Imagine a group of organisms that each ejects 10 seeds measuring 1mm each once per year into a calm area of water. Those seeds combine with each other, more or less by chance, and that is germination with sex.
You seem to think this is a perfectly fine situation, yes?
Now imagine one organism that came along that produced 1000 seeds measuring 0.0001mm each once per year into said water.
One might see that such an organism might have an advantage: They get lots more chances of germination. 100 times more chances in fact.
But there is a slight disadvantage: By stripping down the seed, it means that small seeds cannot germinate with other small seeds and rely on all the mechanics in the big seeds to do the work.
Agree?
So 'small' needs to germinate 'large'.
Yes?
We have two 'types' but only one of them recently evolved, the other evolved at a different time - we have the original and the evolved?
Do you agree that a large seed didn't have to evolve at the same time as the small seed? That the large seed was the original and is only called large relative to the new smaller seed? Do you agree that even though the small seed needs the large seed that doesn't mean the two had to evolve at the same time since the large doesn't necessarily need the small seed (at least initially)?
this seems like a roadblock on the evolutionary highway
It seems like a roadblock until you dig a little deeper and you realize that it isn't actually a problem.
The stumbling block I think you've encountered in your head might be that female gametes now often require male gametes. But the state of affairs you are used to is not necessarily the state of affairs originally.
Think about it like this: After a while the watery environment we described is suddenly filled with lots of 'spare' male gametes that never fertilize. So the female gametes may begin to specialise in capturing the male gametes which may be a better strategy than being ok at both female-female fertilization and male-female. It is almost a biological law that becoming more specialised at one thing makes you less good at other things (it is the principle upon which some vaccinations are made). So it isn't a surprise to learn that many eggs are now so specialized in sperm fertilization techniques that they are very poor at female-female fertilization (although in cases where it is still in principle possible, it occasionally still occurs).
Many insect eggs will hatch as one sex unless they are specifically fertilized.
As I said before, I have no issues with asexual reproduction, or hermaphroditic reproduction, as these to not REQUIRE the opposite sex for reproduction. My issue is, and always has been, with male/female reproduction.
It is a necessary logic that if males evolve - the thing that isn't male is female. So, even though males may require females to reproduction - they are already in the population. Any mutation which created something that was unable to reproduce with anything around it would obviously die without reproducing and that's no way to evolve a new trait - you are quite right in that.
But a mutation which changes the way one goes about reproducing with the things that are commonly around may be successful. And smaller more plentiful gametes is one such thing one can do and biologists call things that use the small plentiful gamete strategy: Male.
Those that don't...are called female. The population evolved as female, and males came along to take advantage of that resource. That shouldn't be controversial - the only question is, how did that happen. And that's a different question than the one at hand.
Edited by Modulous, : now with 100% more words!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by dennis780, posted 05-13-2010 10:17 PM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by dennis780, posted 05-18-2010 7:04 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 96 of 136 (561105)
05-18-2010 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by dennis780
05-18-2010 7:04 PM


Re: all gametes great and small
I agree that the new smaller seeds would be related to the previous bigger seeds. Although I'm unsure what organism you are talking about.
No specific organism - lets call it hypothetia {a hypothetical organism}.
This does not address the question of male/female reproduction.
It directly addresses it. When you have time, re-read my post. Hypothetia that produce smaller seeds are called 'male'. The original organisms that produce the larger seeds are called 'female'. We have just devised a way for male and female things to come into being at the same time, without the need for both of them to simultaneously evolve.
What you are refering to sounds like either germination, or asexual reproduction, in which the opposite sex plays no part in the reproductive process.
That is the primal state of the hypothetia population. It is from this state we think about how to evolve sex and sex differentiation.
Pointing out that fertilization of eggs is the only way an organism only futhurs my point that for both sexes of a species to exist, both sexes are required.
Except I specifically pointed out that both sexes are not required in hypothetia. The females can reproduce without males since that is how they started in their primal state. The only new thing that was introduced was that males existed that NEED females. The females did not start off needing the males.
Now later in your post you refer to a biological law that species become specialized to increase their ability to survive. What you are refering to is adaptation, which is the ability for an organism to change to better Suit it's environment.
Actually I was being even more specific than that. I was pointing out that the more specialised an organism becomes to a specific environment, the worse it does in other environments.
If a hypothetical organism laid any number of eggs (the amount is irrelevant), without a suitable opposite sex, the eggs would die.
Aphids beg to differ (though they don't generally don't bother actually laying the eggs, and they incubate them internally). If you ever get the youngest pacified, consider reading about Parthenogenesis
quote:
Parthenogenesis is a form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male. In plants, parthenogenesis means development of an embryo from an unfertilized egg cell, and is a component process of apomixis. The offspring produced by parthenogenesis are always female in species that use the XY sex-determination system, and male in those that use the ZW sex-determination system.
Parthenogenesis occurs naturally in some invertebrate animal species (e.g. water fleas, aphids, nematodes, some bees, some Phasmida, some scorpion species, and parasitic wasps), and vertebrates (e.g. some reptiles, fish, and very rarely birds and sharks) and this type of reproduction has been induced artificially in other species.
Added by edit:
Don't take my word for it, go look up the evolution of anisogamy yourself:
Cooperation and the evolution of anisogamy
Gametic conflict versus contact in the evolution of anisogamy
The quick and the dead? Sperm competition and sexual conflict in sea.
Selection for high gamete encounter rates explains the evolution of anisogamy using plausible assumptions about size relationships of swimming speed and duration.
Naturally, reality is much messier than hypothetia - but if you can't get your head around her...you won't have a chance with the real deal.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by dennis780, posted 05-18-2010 7:04 PM dennis780 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024