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Author Topic:   The End of Evolution By Means of Natural Selection
Pluto
Junior Member (Idle past 5293 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 04-13-2010


Message 352 of 851 (555485)
04-13-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Percy
04-13-2010 8:00 PM


Re: ring species genotypes are different, how do you get C, D and E by loss?
quote:
What Faith doesn't have is a single example of reduced allele diversity producing speciation. Domestic breeding reduces allele diversity and never produces a new species, as creationists are fond in pointing out about cats and dogs. If reducing allele diversity was all it took to create a new species then breeders would have done it many times across human history, yet I don't think there's a single example.
I think this is partly due to the ambiguous definition of species, and that in some cases potential species from artificial selection are defined away.
From wikipedia
In a few cases it may be physically impossible for animals that are members of the same species to mate. However, these are cases in which human intervention has caused gross morphological changes, and are therefore excluded by the biological species concept.(emphasis mine)
Could you elaborate on the definition of species a bit?
Beyond this, the breeding potential of dogs and cats works in her favor, as it proves that there is a vast quantity of alleles already present in the dog/wolf population, which is necessary for her model.
I doubt there would have been enough time from domestication point to produce all(or most) of the alleles seen, though some were probably produced by mutation. I might be wrong in this however(both points).(Whether or not the alleles originally came from mutations is the point up for debate).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Percy, posted 04-13-2010 8:00 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Blue Jay, posted 04-13-2010 11:57 PM Pluto has replied
 Message 354 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-14-2010 12:38 AM Pluto has not replied
 Message 358 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2010 3:38 AM Pluto has not replied

  
Pluto
Junior Member (Idle past 5293 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 04-13-2010


Message 357 of 851 (555513)
04-14-2010 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Blue Jay
04-13-2010 11:57 PM


Re: ring species genotypes are different, how do you get C, D and E by loss?
quote:
I think you're going to need to explain this a little better.
Are you saying that the ability of a diverse assemblage of dog varieties to interbreed can somehow be used as support for Faith's idea that all that genetic diversity was present in the original gene pool of dogs/wolves?
Ya, I'm not very good at explaining things sometimes.
For Faith's model to function, there needs to be a starting pool of alleles to work off of that would generate the variety of phenotypes we observe. If there is not a pool of alleles to work off of, or modification of this pool cannot generate significant variation, then the death knell of the theory is sounded.
The point dogs started getting domesticated(a point which would occur in any model, creationist or evolutionist) is a good starting point for looking for evidence that such a pool potentially existed. According to wikipedia, man began domesticating dogs about 30k-7k years ago. This is not a significant amount of time for truly random mutations to build up to significant quantities(correct me if I'm wrong), and thus it is reasonable to assume that the vast majority of the variation that is observed is due to pre-existing alleles(or alleles that are generated by non-random mutations, which are probably only in specific places.).
Thus, at the point of domestication, there existed a large pool of alleles. Given the vast range of dog breeds that can be generated from this original pool(which, if they occured in the wild, many would probably be termed different species), it is conceivable for a pool of alleles to cause significant speciation without the aid of random mutations. This part of the model had been challenged by Percy, partly based on the nebulous term 'species.'
Her model for speciation has thus not experienced any significant challenges yet. 'Cept the flood reduction bit to effectively 4 alleles per gene, but that's a different issue. It doesn't have really any direct links to the validity of this model.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Blue Jay, posted 04-13-2010 11:57 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Percy, posted 04-14-2010 8:28 AM Pluto has not replied

  
Pluto
Junior Member (Idle past 5293 days)
Posts: 4
Joined: 04-13-2010


Message 460 of 851 (556632)
04-20-2010 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by bluescat48
04-20-2010 2:07 PM


Re: isolation drift and selection are enough
quote:
You better check again. What Dr A quoted is what the wiki site has.
Just to clear up any confusion, this is the last edit on that page.
06:59, 20 April 2010 70.173.130.156 (talk) (29,003 bytes) (→Allopatric: Edited because an idiot creationist was using the absence of explicit mention of mutation to pretend that this was implicitly excluded.)
So both are right. It was like she quoted it, and then it was changed(probably because of this very discussion), And now it's how Dr A is quoting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by bluescat48, posted 04-20-2010 2:07 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Faith, posted 04-20-2010 3:48 PM Pluto has not replied

  
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