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Author Topic:   Marriage – What is it and what’s the point?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 46 of 80 (552211)
03-27-2010 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by nwr
03-27-2010 10:32 AM


I see nothing wrong with his statement there. Many of us come from very religious and conservative families. Yes, we can sit here all day and say screw our family as long as we're happy. But the reality is for many of us we can't just shut our families out. May be you can, but I can't, damn it. Not all of us are as lucky to have come from more open minded families.

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 47 of 80 (552311)
03-28-2010 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by nwr
03-27-2010 10:32 AM


Hi nwr
Jumped Up Chimpanzee writes:
What does concern me is the way it is billed as a big aim in life and you are deemed a failure if you're not married.
nwr writes:
You keep saying things like that. But that is not my experience at all.
Perhaps that is true in your social circles. You might want to try broadening those circles.
I didn't mean to overplay my own personal experience. I may have given the wrong impression there. Although I come from a conservative background, and live and socialise in what I suppose are predominantly provincial "middle England" circles, this isn't the 1950's. I have friends and aquaintances from a fairly wide background, and most of them have a fairly modern live-and-let-live attitude.
I've always been one to question things, to try and look behind the scenes of things that are presented to me. That's why when certain people say to me it's a shame I'm single, etc, it doesn't get me depressed. On a personal basis, I find it irritating and actually feel sorry for those who say those things, because I regard them as ignorant and unable to think freely.
But I am concerned about the many, many people who clearly are affected by the stigma of being single. (I suppose this really is an issue about the idea that you have to be in at least some kind of serious relationship, not necessary marriage). It may not always be stated directly, but there are countless everyday insinuations that there is something wrong or unfulfilled about you if you are not in a relationship.
Even if you don't feel it is something you experience in your own social circles, you must at least be familiar with the way it is portrayed in popular fiction. Many well-known books, films and TV shows are entirely based around a frantic, often obsessive aim to get hitched. We are culturally inundated with this message that to achieve a happy ending we must find a partner.

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 Message 45 by nwr, posted 03-27-2010 10:32 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 48 of 80 (552348)
03-28-2010 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-28-2010 6:24 AM


Jumped Up Chimpanzee writes:
Even if you don't feel it is something you experience in your own social circles, you must at least be familiar with the way it is portrayed in popular fiction.
We probably have different tastes in books. My fiction reading included "Sherlock Holmes", a lot of Isaac Asimov's science fiction, many books in the "Biggles" series. I also enjoyed a lot of P.G. Wodehouse. But when I came to romantic stories, I found that pretty boring. I hated it when we had to read "Wuthering Heights" and "Vanity Fair" in high school.

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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 49 of 80 (552363)
03-28-2010 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-25-2010 10:59 AM


Do It Like They Do On The Discovery Channel
Jumped Up Chimpanzee writes:
But I think it is wrong for any individual or society to push people into getting married, or to in any way symbolise it as some kind of ultimate personal attainment.
You're absolutely right. (Or, at least, I agree with you... which just happens to be the highest court I know of )
Being pressurised into getting married does not necessarily mean being told directly that you must marry your girlfriend/boyfriend. It is an intrinsic part of our society. Marriage is usually a pre-fabricated, one-size-fits-all legal agreement. It is not something each couple has devised on their own initiative.
As some people have pointed out, this isn't true for all circles of society. However, I do agree that mainstream society (or, at least, the only mainstream society that matters... the one I see everyday during my life ) agrees that this is indeed "an intrinsic part of our society." I'm talking about the mob-mentallity portion of society that makes SLICE a popular TV channel. They exist, and they're large. Perhaps they are not "most", but they're certainly significant.
As far as I can tell, it's just a ladder seen by this large portion of society. From lowest to highest:
Single
Relationship
Marriage
Kids
And, if you don't follow those steps, in that order, at the appropriate age groups... then you will be seen as "not doing what you're supposed to be doing" in this life. Which is, at most, not getting a grade-school gold-star sticker from a substitute teacher. But, we all know that as far as mob-mentallity society goes. Gold stars make the world go 'round.
There is something fundamentally wrong with the way so many young adults (some of them not even deemed old enough to vote) are herded into signing a legal agreement that will affect them for the rest of their lives, often without any proper explanation of what it means. At the moment, it is just far too easy to get married.
Again, you're absolutely right.
However, this does not mean there's anything wrong with legal marriage. As many people have pointed out, it's very useful and reasonable for a variety of reasons.
Those stuck in the mob-mentality of society are too stupid (or lazy?) to look at why they should be choosing to get married. As with kids, there are good reasons, and bad reasons.
Good Reasons:
-You have found somene who agrees with your personal assessment of what should be a high priority in this life, and what should be a low priority
-You both want to be protected by the legal aspects provided by marriage
Bad Reasons:
(Possibly "irrelevent reasons", if coupled with the Good Reasons above. My point is that if any of these are your single reason or main reason for getting married... you are opening a big door for the opportunity of having a troubled marriage)
-Other people (including your family members) think you should get married
-You have been together for a long time
-You want to have kids
-It is a personal goal to be married by the age of X
-Your partner really, really wants to get married (with sprinkles on top)
-You want "a big wedding day" or "your special day"
-You think that once you're married your partner will "settle down" or change in some other way you would appreciate
-You think "it'll be good for the kids"
-All your friends are getting married
-It will then be okay for you to have sex
-Hair will stop growing on your palms (oops... I think that's for another fairy tale...)
-You want an engagement ring
-You don't feel awesome about your partner, but you feel like "no other person" could tolerate you anyway, so you might as well
I agree, Jumped Up Chimpanzee, waaaaaaaay too many people "get married" or "have kids" for the wrong reasons (somehow climbing some imaginary social ladder they think is important).
Has anyone ever seen that really old stop-motion animation thing of Santa Claus (Kris Kringle) that plays on TV most years around Christmas? I've always liked their wedding: "And then, one special night, Kris and his wife got together before the world, under the stars, surrounded by animals (their only friends at the time.. no other people, no gifts, no dinner...) and made a solemn promise to each other.
I think that's a very nice vision of what marriage should be about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 03-25-2010 10:59 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

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DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 50 of 80 (552395)
03-28-2010 4:54 PM


Has no one considered it may simply be symbolic? Why is that not enough?

Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 51 of 80 (552426)
03-29-2010 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Stile
03-28-2010 11:12 AM


Re: Do It Like They Do On The Discovery Channel
Hi Stile
Thanks for re-assuring me I'm not mental.
Or if I am, at least there's 2 of us.
Sounds like we were made for each other.

This message is a reply to:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 52 of 80 (552428)
03-29-2010 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by DC85
03-28-2010 4:54 PM


Has no one considered it may simply be symbolic? Why is that not enough?
If marriage were just a party to celebrate a personal committment to someone, then yes it may simply be symbolic. But I think a serious legal agreement that can affect you for your whole life, is more than symbolic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by DC85, posted 03-28-2010 4:54 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by DC85, posted 03-30-2010 4:02 PM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
DavidOH
Junior Member (Idle past 4455 days)
Posts: 11
From: Cincinnati, OH, USA
Joined: 09-12-2008


Message 53 of 80 (552455)
03-29-2010 9:24 AM


Anyone in an Arranged Marriage?
The extreme version of marrying due to social pressure would be the arranged marriage, especially if the bride & groom have no say in the selection.
Are any members currently or previously in arranged marriages & would like to comment?
How often do the partners grow together (like in a book or movie)?
How often do they lead separate lives outside the house (every social function is wives in the kitchen & husbands out on the patio)?

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 54 of 80 (552487)
03-29-2010 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-24-2010 11:12 AM


Legal Tedium
But a firm handshake is all that’s required.
I wish that were true. I am married. But I had (and still have) largely the same atitude towards the whole thing as you. So does my wife. So (I hear you ask) why the hell did we ever get married? Well for 8 years or so it was never an issue and neither of us ever saw any reason that it would be.
But then once we started buying a house, having kids and what-not (work benefits, insurance, etc. etc. really tedious stuff) it became so much more hassle not to be married from a legal standpoint that in the end we gave up fighting it and just got it out of the way.
Signed some papers and went for a quiet meal with a couple of close friends in a reasonably swanky central London restaurant to celebrate and that was that. She didn't change her name or anything and except for less administrative hassle nothing whatosever has changed.
So - In effect I feel that the social structures imposed require or assume that you are married and make things just more difficult if you are not. Path of least resistence on my part. Who says romance is dead huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 03-24-2010 11:12 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 55 of 80 (552607)
03-30-2010 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Straggler
03-29-2010 12:58 PM


Re: Legal Tedium
So - In effect I feel that the social structures imposed require or assume that you are married and make things just more difficult if you are not. Path of least resistence on my part. Who says romance is dead huh?
But not dead in your case, from the sound of it. You got married for exactly the right reasons. You'd already made a decision to live together because that's what you wanted. And you were mature enough to realise that your personal relationship was nobody else's business. And you then signed a legal document from a position of sobriety and objectivity for pragmatic reasons.
Too many people I know get married because they think they have to, not just for social respectability, but because they think that it is somehow necessary in order to cement the relationship.
Congratulations and a firm handshake, by the way, on becoming a dad!

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DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 56 of 80 (552683)
03-30-2010 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-29-2010 4:32 AM


If marriage were just a party to celebrate a personal committment to someone, then yes it may simply be symbolic. But I think a serious legal agreement that can affect you for your whole life, is more than symbolic.
What better way to show commitment then to have a legally binding contract? I'll give you divorce rate seems to be growing but still I think it's a somewhat (note somewhat) valid point.
Edited by DC85, : spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 03-29-2010 4:32 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 57 of 80 (552796)
03-31-2010 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by DC85
03-30-2010 4:02 PM


Hi DC85
What better way to show commitment then to have a legally binding contract? I'll give you divorce rate seems to be growing but still I think it's a somewhat (note somewhat) valid point.
In my opinion it may show a form of commitment, but one that is without true sentiment. In my OP I made the point that if 2 people need to sign a binding agreement to the effect that they really love and trust each other, surely that's a sign that deep down they don't.
I don't mean to imply that everyone who signs such an agreement is not truly committed to their partner because it's a tradition, of course. And I also accept some of the practical reasons for doing so (to establish yourselves legally and clearly as next-of-kin, etc).
It's just my opinion that if you really do love and trust someone you shouldn't have to sign a legal agreement to cement your relationship - or to seek some kind of "approval" from an authority.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 58 of 80 (552884)
03-31-2010 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by DC85
03-30-2010 4:02 PM


What better way to show commitment then to have a legally binding contract?
What better way to show commitment than to both be sure that such a thing is unnecessary to bind you together?
Anyway buying a house together (for example) is far more legally binding (in the sense of difficulty to get out of) than marriage.

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4916 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 59 of 80 (559092)
05-06-2010 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Larni
03-24-2010 1:49 PM


Re: The purpose? Good question!
Marriage is from the very beginning, dude. Go read Genesis 2. Hammurabi's Code was not around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Larni, posted 03-24-2010 1:49 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4916 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 60 of 80 (559096)
05-06-2010 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-24-2010 11:12 AM


Marriage is a Sacred Thing
Just to throw in the conservative Christian (my) view... Marriage exists as a covenant before God and is a reflection of the Christ-Church relationship. It is a picture of two becoming one...so that there is no division between the two anymore. All of Christian history is pointing forward to the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, when God's people are united with their Lord as Bride & Groom. This really has nothing to do with a "big Man with a big stick up there."
I do have to agree with you that outside of the sacred context, I see no overt reason for marriage itself in terms of purpose. There are, however, all sorts of statistics that point to the success of the arrangement in terms of the well-being of children. That is not to say that children of divorce or single-parent homes cannot succeed, but there is great advantage in the arrangement of having a committed, influential man and woman in the life of children. It provides balance and stability that simply cannot be replicated. Again, that being said, so much rests on the quality of parenting of father and mother, not the mere presence of both father and mother in the home.
Not even within the conservative Christian vantage point is there a no-way out mandate to marry, however. In fact, the New Testament encourages singleness in certain regards...just in a very different manner than our society looks upon bachelorhood.
I hope this is helpful to somebody.

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