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Author Topic:   Homeschooling
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 9 of 51 (549976)
03-11-2010 7:41 PM


Being a homeschool child myself for the last 4 years of highschool there seems to be some misunderstanding of the homeschool movement.
While yes, a large majority of homeschoolers, homeschool due to religious reasons this is not always the case. As far as their level of aptitude, it varies almost as much as does the aptitude of public or private schooled children. As as kid I remember meeting or hearing about some pretty stellar homeschoolers whose children went on to college, even Ivy league schools, at a very young age. However, I also met some kids who were dumber than a box of rocks.
What were the factors that explain this range of aptitude?
#1 The aptitude of the parent(s) who schooled them. Some were college educated with undergraduate, graduate and doctorate degrees while others barely graduated high school or were high school dropouts.
#2 Usually (though not always), the more religiously fundamental the parents were, the fewer real sciences (not creationism) and secular studies these children were exposed too.
I was fortunate enough to have both a mother and father who were college educated (father was retired Air Force and had a BA in Ministry, Master in Divinity, and a BA in Computer Science; mother attended Bible college and taken many courses in Child Psychology, History, Humanities and Archeology). My mother, though a Christian at the time, was not afraid to expose my brother and I to a wide variety of secular subjects and books. I read the gamet of classical books from Chaucer to Leo Tolstoy. In other words, a classical education. As a result of my mother's tutoring and self-education through high school, I was able to score a 29 on my ACT, a 1290 on my SAT and was granted a scholarship at a Christian Liberal Arts College studying pre-med.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Nunquam, posted 03-11-2010 8:06 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 11 of 51 (549991)
03-11-2010 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Nunquam
03-11-2010 8:06 PM


Don't you think this problem could be eliminated by ensuring that the parents are equipped to teach and are providing the right curriculum?
I think well-educated and well-rounded/grounded parents are a crucial component to a decent homeschool education. Too many religious parents with little to no formal education outside of high school think they can give there children an education on par or exceeding public school education. Very few if any can.
A well-educated and informed parent can give a good education to there children (many of our founding fathers had this type of education). Going back to the classical system of education is a good way of accomplishing this i.e. critical thinking/logic/science/humanities/foreign language/english/math/etc.
Also realize, not all children can thrive with this type of educational system. Developing self-discipline and critical thinking skills on both the part of the parent and the child are crucial for success. Parents must act as teacher, principle, tutor, counselor and classmate. It is not easy.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Nunquam, posted 03-11-2010 8:06 PM Nunquam has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by purpledawn, posted 03-12-2010 5:15 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 15 of 51 (550028)
03-12-2010 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by purpledawn
03-12-2010 5:15 AM


Re: Social Skills
PD writes:
I feel social skills are also dependent on personality.
I felt mentally tormented by some fellow students throughout grade school. Consequently, I was a loner throughout high school. I had poor social skills. Pretty much a wall flower. A stint in the Marine Corps helped me. Oddly enough I ended up in the Public Affairs Office.
My social skills are still not the best, but I'm old enough now I don't care. I stink at BS and am not much for one-upmanship, so I'm rather quiet in new encounters. I take too long editing what I'm going to say before I say it. In some cases that's good and in some not so much. I'm waiting for when I hit 70 or 80 and whatever I think just pops out of my mouth unedited.
Being a middle child with 2 brothers and a sister, a military kid who moved over 10 times by the time I was 18, and an introvert bookworm are not a good combination to being the most socially adept person out there. Though I am amiable, optimistic and upbeat I am still not a social animal like my wife is. I can hold my own in conversations but definately get my energy from "me time" vice "time spent with friends" like my wife.
I have learned to balance my personal thoughts and my outward speach but it is not a trait that comes naturally to me. I am a INTJ (Introverted Intuitive Thinking Judging) personality (same as Thomas Jefferson, JFK and C.S. Lewis).
Hey this would make a good start of a thread: What Personality Profile are you. Will start this later today.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by purpledawn, posted 03-12-2010 5:15 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 03-12-2010 7:15 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 24 of 51 (550047)
03-12-2010 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by hooah212002
03-12-2010 8:44 AM


Any response I give will be ammo for those who are currently accusing me of hating anything christianity. So I will say that Time Tebow WAS homeschooled, and in my opinion he is a twat because his parents gave him crap education: religion instead of knowledge. The kid is dumb as a box of rocks. If he weren't built like a brick shit-house, he'd bagging groceries or working fast food.
How do you know so much about this Tebow guy? Do you know him personally? Sounds like you are prejudging this guy without even giving him the benefit of the doubt.
If you are, than you are falling into the same trap that many religious fundamentalist do, using blind faith (aka judging a book by its cover) to unfairly paint a caracture of people you do not like rather than using critical thinking and analysis to determine the truth. To say all homeschoolers, even religious ones, are idiots and unable to educate their children is unfairly poisoning the well.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by hooah212002, posted 03-12-2010 8:44 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by hooah212002, posted 03-24-2010 5:35 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 25 of 51 (550049)
03-12-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Huntard
03-12-2010 9:30 AM


Could anyoneenlighten me as to why it's gone so wrong with your public school system? It seems to be working a lot better here in Europe. Or is that just a false impression?
More like an unfair generalization. There are good and there are bad schools in the United States. If you are talking about on average, than it depends on what standard you are using to judge them.
Can you please enlighten us Huntard on what they typically teach in European schools and the level of knowledge an average 5th grader and 12 th grader should know after graduating so we can adequately compare the two (US and European schools)?
Thanks!

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2010 9:30 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2010 10:50 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 28 of 51 (550066)
03-12-2010 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Huntard
03-12-2010 10:50 AM


Uhm, could you then please tell me what 12th graders are? We've got a bit different classification here, I think.
You've got 1st grade through to 8th grade. That's the "basisschool"(basic school).
Then you move to a new school, depending on your level of knowledge. This happens when you're 12-13. You've basically got three levels in this "middelbare school" (middle school). VMBO (preparing for middle work-eductation, lasting 4 years) HAVO (Higher preparation for next level education, lasting 5 years) and VWO (preparation for scientific education, lasting 6 years).
It sounds like comparing American schools with European ones is almost like comparing apples to oranges. Understanding that there is more of a push of vocational skills at the lower grades in European schools vice US schools, it is a bit unfair to compare the two.
Here is basically how American schools are layed out:
1. Preschool (optional) 4 & 5 year olds
2. Elementary School:
Kindergarten and 1st through 5th/6th grade
Subjects: reading, writing, arithmetic, science, art, etc
3. Middle School (5th/6th thru 8th grade) or Junior High School (7th and 8th grade) depending on region
Subjects: same as above progressing to more advanced subjects i.e. health, pre-algebra, world history, etc
4. High School: 9th thru 12th grade (most kids graduate between 16 and 18 years old)
Subjects: General Studies i.e. geometry, algebra, triginometry, basic calculus, biology, chemistry, world and american history, government (civics), etc w/ very little emphasis on vocational skills
5. 2 yr Vocational School/Community College (optional) or 2/4 yr College/University (optional)
The basic breakdown of the US population (over the average college graduate age of 25):
Primary School/High School Dropout: 20%
High School Graduate (including GED equivalent): 29%
Some college, no degree: 21%
Associate Degree: 6%
Bachelor Degree: 15%
Graduate (Masters)/Professional (Doctorate) Degree: 9%
After that (16-19 years) you go to either an MBO (middle work-eduation), HBO (higher work-education) or WO (scientific education, we also call this a university). When you finish a HBO, you're a bachelor. When you finish your complete WO (university) you're a master. These are the same level as your degrees, I believe.
They are. Most college degrees are transferable between Europe
(though not the Bahamas ) and the US.
And all of this is basically public school, paid for (at least in part, or sometimes completely, depending on income of the parents) by the government. Also, everyone on a MBO, HBO or WO education gets a "study finance" of about 100 euros when living at home with their parents, and about 450 euros (I believe) when living on their own, every month.
Our schools come out of tax revenue paid to the government. There is not set amount for each parent to pay, this amount usually comes from income taxes which the bottom 1/3 of the US population does not pay.
That's in a nutshell our education system. I hope you can figure out how much knowledge is required for each step. If not, ask away
Thanks. I still think that comparing the two is almost apples to oranges.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 03-12-2010 10:50 AM Huntard has not replied

  
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