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Author Topic:   Playing God with Neanderthals
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 91 of 144 (597685)
12-23-2010 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Peter
12-23-2010 9:43 AM


Re: Morality though....
Maybe Neaderthals include the daughters of man who the sons of god found fair ....
Talk about seeing the inner beauty!
Michael: Wow! Gabe, check her out!
Gabriel: Who?
Michael: Her?
Gabriel: The mammoth?
Michael: No, next to the mammoth. The short, thick one with the huge nose and no chin.
Gabriel: The one with the brow ridges that make her eyes look like pits?
Michael: Yeah.
Gabriel: And the elongate head?
Michael: Yeah.
Gabriel: And the thick trunk?
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Gabriel: Yeah, she IS hot. Say, you wanna go have sex with her?
Michael: We're angels, we don't have genitalia.
Gabriel: Right. Damn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Peter, posted 12-23-2010 9:43 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 92 of 144 (602206)
01-26-2011 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Nuggin
12-23-2010 10:36 AM


Neaderthal Hotties
I actually laughed out loud with that one
Not sure who the 'sons of god' are who are mentioned in Genesis -- suggestions on a post-card to ...
Back to the question though (and I haven't been here regularly for some time):
Why is there a problem 'creating' a Neanderthal from recovered DNA?
Is it JUST because they are so like us that it would make some people uncomfortable?
If the same question would NOT arise when considering 'resurrecting', say, a mammoth then I can only presume that the discomfort factor is high in the list.
I don't think you would necessarily find out much about Neaderthal behaviour though, since the newly sprung Neaderthal would have no-one to learn Neanderthalness from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Nuggin, posted 12-23-2010 10:36 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Jon, posted 01-26-2011 8:12 PM Peter has seen this message but not replied
 Message 94 by bluescat48, posted 01-27-2011 12:57 AM Peter has replied
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 01-27-2011 12:30 PM Peter has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 144 (602221)
01-26-2011 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Peter
01-26-2011 6:52 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
I don't think you would necessarily find out much about Neaderthal behaviour though, since the newly sprung Neaderthal would have no-one to learn Neanderthalness from.
Indeed, I cannot understand why anyone would believe a Neanderthal to be maladaptive by default. What should make us assume a Neanderthal, unlike a modern human, receives all of their mental faculties and abilities at birth? Is it not just as feasible that most of their behavior and mental capabilities are unconsciously learned as they experience the world around them?
I think any Neanderthal born today and raised as a human being may very likely be perfectly indistinguishable from the other humans around themfalling both mentally and physically within the acceptable range of variation of the modern form, perhaps only with exception of their immunity or susceptibility to various diseases.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : ABE: 'perhaps only with exception of their immunity or susceptibility to various diseases'

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

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Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Blue Jay, posted 01-27-2011 10:29 AM Jon has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 94 of 144 (602254)
01-27-2011 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Peter
01-26-2011 6:52 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Not sure who the 'sons of god' are who are mentioned in Genesis -- suggestions on a post-card to ...
The son of God are the descendants of Seth & the daughters of the sons of man are the descendants of Cain. Which in no way has anything to do with Neanderthals.
Edited by bluescat48, : missing line

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Peter, posted 01-26-2011 6:52 PM Peter has replied

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 95 of 144 (602288)
01-27-2011 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Jon
01-26-2011 8:12 PM


Maladaptive Neanderthals
Hi, Jon.
Jon writes:
Indeed, I cannot understand why anyone would believe a Neanderthal to be maladaptive by default.
I always thought the "maladaptive" opinions were more focused on immunity concerns and social stigmatization than on the mental capacity of Neanderthals.
As Chimp was arguing upthread, these are just precautionary measures. Assuming the worst possible outcomes is a very effective way to ensure that the moral considerations of a given course of action are properly addressed beforehand.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Jon, posted 01-26-2011 8:12 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Jon, posted 01-27-2011 12:50 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 96 of 144 (602314)
01-27-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Peter
01-26-2011 6:52 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Why is there a problem 'creating' a Neanderthal from recovered DNA?
Is it JUST because they are so like us that it would make some people uncomfortable?
Yes, they are sentient beings like us. There is a long history within bioethics of extending more rights to sentient species than to those considered to be less sentient. In biomedical research there are different rules for experiments done on fish, mice, dogs, and primates. All four of these groups have different rules with primates receiving the most rights.
Also, there are obvious questions as to health risks that we may be exposing a neanderthal to through the process of DNA reconstruction. Many of the cloned animals we have produced suffer from health problems related to the procedure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Peter, posted 01-26-2011 6:52 PM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Peter, posted 02-25-2011 5:01 AM Taq has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 144 (602315)
01-27-2011 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Blue Jay
01-27-2011 10:29 AM


Re: Maladaptive Neanderthals
I always thought the "maladaptive" opinions were more focused on immunity concerns and social stigmatization than on the mental capacity of Neanderthals.
I don't know why a Neanderthal raised as a human being would be socially stigmatized.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Blue Jay, posted 01-27-2011 10:29 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Blue Jay, posted 01-27-2011 1:17 PM Jon has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 98 of 144 (602318)
01-27-2011 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Jon
01-27-2011 12:50 PM


Re: Maladaptive Neanderthals
Hi, Jon.
Jon writes:
I don't know why a Neanderthal raised as a human being would be socially stigmatized.
I can think of plenty of reasons:
  1. Lots of people will be curious about how intelligent he/she is.
  2. Lots of people will be curious about how well he/she speaks.
  3. Lots of Paparazzi will want photos.
  4. There will inevitably be detractors of "playing God" that will surely cause problems.
Again, you have to assume the worst in order to ensure that the moral considerations of the situation are adequately covered.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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 Message 97 by Jon, posted 01-27-2011 12:50 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Jon, posted 01-27-2011 2:11 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 144 (602326)
01-27-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Blue Jay
01-27-2011 1:17 PM


Re: Maladaptive Neanderthals
I can think of plenty of reasons:
  1. Lots of people will be curious about how intelligent he/she is.
  2. Lots of people will be curious about how well he/she speaks.
  3. Lots of Paparazzi will want photos.
  4. There will inevitably be detractors of "playing God" that will surely cause problems.
Indeed! My point was moreso directed at a situation in which the identity of the Neanderthal person is not published. The publicity of the whole thing, however, could certainly create developmental and adaptive problems for anyone, Neanderthal or notjust look at all those former 'child stars'.
Anyway, if we decide to treat the poor boy like a monkey in a zoo, then we aren't really attempting to raise him as a human being, and I'd say my point wouldn't be overly relevant anymore. In that case, though, I'd say treating a human being like a science experiment would be much more immoral than simply causing the critter to exist in the first place. Creating a human who you believe may be maladaptive or developmentally slow by default is hardly as cruel as creating a human for the simple sake of torturing him endlessly with mind-numbing science experiments.
Jon

Check out No webpage found at provided URL: Apollo's Temple!
Ignorance is temporary; you should be able to overcome it. - nwr

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Blue Jay, posted 01-27-2011 1:17 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 100 of 144 (606358)
02-25-2011 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by bluescat48
01-27-2011 12:57 AM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Doesn't Job 2:1 kind of hint that the sons of God are the 'angels' -- since Satan is one of them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by bluescat48, posted 01-27-2011 12:57 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 101 of 144 (606359)
02-25-2011 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Taq
01-27-2011 12:30 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
So it's just a matter of human arrogance then.
'If it looks like us, and might think like us we better be nice to it (unless it's actually one of us then we can abuse the hell out of it)'.
All based on assumptions of worth where the comparison is 'how much like a human is it?'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 01-27-2011 12:30 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Blue Jay, posted 02-25-2011 10:54 AM Peter has replied
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 12:22 PM Peter has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 102 of 144 (606414)
02-25-2011 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Peter
02-25-2011 5:01 AM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Hi, Peter.
Peter writes:
So it's just a matter of human arrogance then.
'If it looks like us, and might think like us we better be nice to it (unless it's actually one of us then we can abuse the hell out of it)'.
All based on assumptions of worth where the comparison is 'how much like a human is it?'
How else should we act?
Is it reasonable to expect anything else?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Peter, posted 02-25-2011 5:01 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Peter, posted 03-02-2011 12:12 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 103 of 144 (607179)
03-02-2011 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Blue Jay
02-25-2011 10:54 AM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
If humans want to learn they need to try to side-step their own arrogance.
I think it is entirely correct to strive for behaviour other than what we see in this world today ... don't you?
Perhaps we should just sit back and say 'Well, it's just the way we're made.' and accept all the counter productive 'stuff' ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Blue Jay, posted 02-25-2011 10:54 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Blue Jay, posted 03-02-2011 2:11 PM Peter has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 104 of 144 (607183)
03-02-2011 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Peter
02-25-2011 5:01 AM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
So it's just a matter of human arrogance then.
No, it is a matter of human empathy, our ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes. If a species is not like us we lack empathy for those creatures. As a rule, humans feel much more empathy for a mouse killed in a trap than a roach squished under their heel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Peter, posted 02-25-2011 5:01 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Peter, posted 03-02-2011 12:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 105 of 144 (607185)
03-02-2011 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Taq
03-02-2011 12:22 PM


Re: Neaderthal Hotties
Isn't measuring worth by comparison to one's own species 'arrogant'?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 12:22 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 03-02-2011 12:29 PM Peter has replied

  
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