Did God say it, or did you say it?

And 12 + 12=? (emphasis mine)

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"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

hERICtic writes:
Can you give an example where "a day" refers to more than 24 hours? You're ignoring the context. First, if you really want to go with a day=1,000 years, then it makes the earth 6,000 years old. Obviously incorrect. The main point though, is that Peter is trying to show god is above time. It has nothing with an actual age of a day.There isnt a single instance in the Bible, that "a day" is anything but 24 hours. Also, the context of Genesis makes it quite clear its 24 hours, evening/morning. Of course, it it is long periods of time, then you have evening (darkness) for nearly a billion years, followed by morning (light) for nearly a billion years, then again for five more "days'. Doesnt really make much sense, does it.If science came to the conclusion tomorrow that the earth was created in six days, would you stand behind your belief that Genesis obviously states long periods of time and not six actual days?Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Since Genesis doesn't come out and say, "BTW guys, the word "day" used in these verses means a literal 24 hour solar day" we have to take more then one thing into account when determining if it means this or not.For starters, without getting all intellectual, I think one has to really stretch the words and read into it what's not there to get that day means more then a literal day. There's no indication, whatsoever that day means thousands or millions of years in this context.Now, take the "totality of the circumstances" into account, in other words, take all the facts into consideration that are given. As we've discussed, the word YOM is used. The Bible generally employs this word to signify either a twenty-four hour solar day, or the daylight portion of those hours. When modified by a number or ordinal (as "Day One" or "Day Two") its universal Scripture usage means a normal solar day. Sometimes (as you have pointed out) 'day' is used to indicate a general period of time not precisely defined (as in Job 7:6, 'My days are vanity....' or Psalm 90:9, 'Our days are passed away in Thy wrath....). But in such cases, 'day' still means a finite succession of normal days: not, by any stretch of the exegetical imagination, vast ages. 'Day' (yom) can occasionally be used of a portion of the year, such as wheat harvest (Gen 30:14), but here again, nothing other then a few weeks limited duration of normal solar days can be intended: not thousand or millions of years."Other" evidences that can be added to this are as follows: In Genesis 'God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.' As though in anticipation of future misunderstanding, God carefully defined His terms. The very first time He used the word yom, He defined it as the 'light', to distinguish it from the 'darkness' called 'night'. After separating the day and night, God had completed His first day's work. 'The evening and the morning were the first day'. This same formula is used at the conclusion of each of the six days; so it's obvious (to me and others), that the duration used on the first day was the same for the others....there was an established cyclical succession of days and nights----periods of light and darkness. Such a cycle of light-darkness clearly means that the earth was rotating on it's axis and that there was a source of light on one side of the earth corresponding to the sun, even though the sun was not yet made (Gen 1:16).In the first chapter of Gen, the ending of each day's work is noted by the statement, 'And the evening and the morning were the first, (or second, or third.....) day.' Thus, each day had distinct boundaries and was one in a series of days, both of which criteria are never present in the Old Testament writings unless literal days are intended.This topic indirectly comes up again in the Ten Commandments given in Exodus chapter 20 verse 11. "Rember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. For in SIX DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day....." Here comes the crucial point of all this that science can't explain and that brings an earthly human application to the 6 literal day creation:After God's creative work, followed by rest, it forms a pattern for a wholesome life for his Image bearer....mankind. The example was given. Obviously, for those who believe in God, he could have made everything in a split second, or over a time span of millions of years. But likely, a major reason to do it the way He chose to do it, was to set an earthly application to work.I feel that less point is less of a stretch then reading the Gap Theory or the Framework Hypothesis into these verses. There's just no evidence for anything other then a literal day.Footnote: my source in this post is the book, "Creation and Change" by Douglas F. Kelly, professor of Systematic Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte, NC.(I'm not as smart as this post may or may not make me appear)

Is it really so critical either way? Will it destroy one's faith whether or not it's literal or figurative?

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

No, I don't think either way it destroys one's faith. Many great Christians in history have not followed the literal day creation (C.S. Lewis, Augustine, ect).For me, and I hope this doesn't turn the topic upside down (but it will), the literal 24 hour day reading fits my view of a young earth.We all come to the table with presuppositions, even atheists. I come to the table with a presupposition (really it's a starting point for a worldview) that is based on the Word of God. I believe the Flood of Noah destroyed everything and can explain much of geology and the fossil record (I know, this is for another debate but it brings me to my point). My point is yes, you can believe that the earth is millions of years old and still be a Christian. Who am I to judge the human heart??? But I think if one believes that they are coming from a point of view that is trying to make science fit into the Bible when I just don't see the need to do that.

Have you ever wondered at what point the author was given this special revelation? The Genesis narrative never explains how the author, presumed to be Moses, knows what he does in order to even claim it derives from God.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

Hi Flyer, Every day in Genesis chapter 1 was a 24 hour day except the first day.You can only get 12 hours from evening until morning which constituted the first day.That is unless you had a light period prior to the evening. That light period would have started in Genesis 1:1 when the heavens and the earth was created. The day refered to in Genesis 2:4.Can there be an evening without a day?

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Well, i just dont get it.if the evening begins at sundown, thats say 6.30pmand if morning begins at sunup, thats about 5.30/6.00amI dont see how it amounts to 24hours

Oh c'mon, i've shown this a million times alreadyGenesis 1:5 5And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.Genesis 1:5The light on earth is only 12 hours in length before the darkness, unless you think otherwise.God called the light Day/Yom. And it was only 12 hours.Please remember this scripture.

777Hi Hyroglyphx, What makes you think Moses was trying to convey anything?Moses was in God's presence for 40 days. I doubt if they were playing chess. I am a literalist.I don't have enough faith to tell a mountains to remove itself into the sea. That would require as much faith as believing all this just happened. There are several witnesses that heard Him speak in an audible voice.But a person that can not believe Genesis 1:1 would not accept their testimony as reliable. I have seen this argument several times.But the Bible is not a book. It is a collection of 66 books that was written by some forty different writters on three continents, in three languages over a period of 1500 years.So explain to me what is circular about what it says.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Peg,I asked if science determined that the earth was created in 6 days, would you still say the Bible really means long periods of time?hERICtic writes:
There isnt a single instance in the Bible, that "a day" is anything but 24 hours. I bet you cannot even show me three! I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. First, now you're admitting its 12 hours, instead of long periods of time? Second, do you really think that the Hebrews only thought a day was 12 hours long instead of 24? It refers to both. Daylight, as a day. Or the day plus evening.

Thats simply incorrect.The bible does not use yom 'generally' to signify 24 hours at all.I've shown several scriptures where Yom is used to indicate long period of time.the first is Genesis 1:5 where only the 12 hours of light is called 'day'
the 2nd is Genesis 2:4 where we see all 6 days are called 'ONE DAY'In other passages, day is seen to be used to indicate a measure of distance, as in the expressions a day’s journey found at Numbers 11.31. In prophecy it has been used used to stand for one year as found at Ezekiel 4.6 and Numbers 14:34. It is used with reference to a persons lifetime as found at Isaiah 1:1And considering we are talking about Genesis specifically, why does the 7th day not end with "and there came to be evening and there came to be mornign a 7th day"it simply says "and God proceeded to rest on the 7th day" but it doesnt say that that day came to an end as it does the previous 6. Rather, we see the Apostle Paul telling christians 4,000 years later that Gods rest day was still in progress.You can claim that Yom means a 24 hour day all you like, but the bible does not present that picture at all. The word itself can be used in a wide range of circumstances and the jews didnt even begin dividing the day into hours until after the babylonian exile.

Peg, I've agreed with you that YOM can be used in other ways but it's generally used for a day or shorter length of time, such as the example of the wheat harvest.Can you give any example where the Bible uses the word YOM to refer to thousands or millions of years? Just one? It's much more of a stretch to believe that the Bible is referring to vast ages in Gen 1 + then to believe that it means a literal day.In fact I can pull up well over 50 New Testament scriptures written by apostles who believed in the literal Word of God in the Old Testament and not once will you find a Gap Theory or some other Enlightenment Age theory to explain creation and science. No in the New Testament believed in anything other then a literal day. For me, it's the LACK of evidence in support of this view that sways me from it.As far as the Jews not dividing the day up into 24 hours until a certain time period is irrelevant to the discussion. A Christian believes that God created time, not the Jews, or whoever...the Jews could have called a 'day' 36 hours, or 12 hours for all I care. But it doesn't change the fact that there was still only so much 'time' in a day...that being the same amount of 'time' there is now in a day. How they counted it is completely irrelevant. But they did start with darkness and light.Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.

Because if you don't write clearly then no one knows what you're talking about. Allegedly.... You can't trust a murderer who buries his victims in sand. So then parables should be taken literally? Apparently no one has, including Jesus, so don't feel bad Why not? I think if people heard God they'd tend to believe. I never said otherwise. Saying the bible has authority because the bible says it has authority is circular.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

you are missing the point.YOM does not stand for a specific length of time. It is a word to describe time in general....nothing specific.It can mean 12 hours or 12 months or 12 years or 1 million years.Its the same as the english term "i'll see you later"what does 'later' mean in this context? it could mean i'll see you tonight or tomorrow, or it could mean i'll see you in 3 weeks, or 2 months or next year....its not a set time.the hebrew word Yom is exactly like that. Its non specific. you know i love a challenge :wink:Genesis 1:5 'the light he called day' The 12 hour period is called a day
Genesis 2:4 'in the day that God created the heaven and earth' All the days are called 1 day.
Isaiah 1:1 'in the days of Uzziah, Jothan, Ahaz, Hezekiah' the lifetimes of 4 consecutive kings.
2Peter 3:7 'the day of judgement' which is a 1,000 year periodenjoy.