Passover problems in the Gospels

You dont seem to understand that we are talking about a 24hour period of time that began at 6pm (sundown) and ended the following sundown at 5.59pm.If the lambs are killed and eaten when they are supposed to be eaten, then they are eaten just after the sun goes down and before the dark of night sets in... aprox 6-7pm on Nisan 14Nisan 14 Passover Begins
6pm - start of new day. Celebration begins, lambs are near ready to eat
7pm - lambs eaten before darkness appears
8pm -
9pm - Jesus & Disciples head outdoors
10pm
11pm
MIDNIGHT Nisan 14 - Arrested in Garden of gethsemane
1am - Taken to Sanhedren for night time trial
2am
3am - held at high priest Caiphas house until he can be taken to Pilate
4am
5am - cock crows while Jesus is still being held at Caiaphas house.
SUNRISE Nisan 14 - General population are now waking up after celebration.
7am - Jesus taken to Pilate sometime early in morning.
8am
9am
10am
11am - Sentenced to death
MIDDAY Nisan 14 - Is on the stake around midday
1pm - A 3 hour long darkness occurs
2pm - darkness
3pm - darkness
4pm - darkness. Jesus is seen to be dead and is taken down from stake.
5pm - jesus is rushed to the tomb and buried before sundown.
5.59pm Nisan 14 is about to come to an end.6pm Nisan 15 - Festival of unfirmented cakes begins at sundown.Im just curious to know if you are understanding the day and the events of Nisan 14 in the way that i've put above???

Hi Peg.I agree with you 100%. Always have on the time frame. The confusion lies bc the word "Preparation Day" was often used. This could mean before the Passover day, or before the Sabbath.So they time frame in the synoptics is:Preparation Day before the Passover. At 6pm the day turns into:
Passover, which falls on the preparation day for the Sabbath.So when PD kept saying Jesus was killed on the Preparation Day, she never stated before the Passover or before the Saturday Sabbath. I kept thinking she was refering to the day before the Passover.Now, my quoted comments above, should make sense as to why I kept repeating my point over and over.Great chart though.Sorry for the confusion.But here lies the problem with the gospels and why PD kept refering about a change, which goes against the OT scripture.The slaying of the lambs is on Passover. Yet the synoptics state the slaying of the lambs occured one the first day of unleavened bread.This cannot possibly be correct. I have read in a few places that the days were combined after 70. In other words, the authors were not aware that in 33, they were two seperate days.Today, Passover, from my understanding is a seven day event.
Yet the OT teaches that its 8 days. Its appears the combined Passover with the first day of the FOUB.Originally Jazzsn kept throwing sites my way that showed the Passover starting on the 15th. He was quite upset that I kept stating it was the 14th. We were both correct.

There are two preparation days. One is the preparation for the passover lamb and the other is the preparation of the unfermented bread/cakes.
Mark explains that the preparation day was the day before the sabbath.
Mark 15:42 42Now as it was already late in the afternoon, and since it was Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, So he is speaking about Nisan 14 here. Not the passover of the lamb, but the daylight hours after the lamb had been eaten and the preparations for the unfermented cakes was taking place. The day of Jesus’ death could be viewed as the preparation of the passover in the sense that it was the preparation for the 7 day Festival of Unfermented Cakes that began the next day. this is because the celebrations were so close on the calendar that the entire festival itself was often called Passover. And the day after Nisan 14 was always a Sabbath, so they still needed to prepare their food and upcoming celebration of unfermented cakes because they could not do this on the sabbath....it had to be done on the 14th in keeping with the law found at Ex 20:10 stating that no work was to be carried out on the sabbath. If this is what you are referring to, there could be a few explanations for this.the greek word in the text of Matthew is 'protos' and in other verses its rendered as before such as at Joh 1:15, 30.... he existed before [protos] me. So its quite possible that Matthew should be read as 'on the day before the unfermented cakes' which is why we cant be dogmatic about this one verse.At John 19:14 Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour [of the daytime, between 11:00 a.m. and noon]. This, of course, was after the time of the Passover meal, which had been eaten the night before. But in this verse the Greek word pa‧ra‧skeu‧e′ is translated preparation. This word seems to mark, not the day preceding Nisan 14, but the day preceding the weekly Sabbath.this is in harmony with Exodus 16:5 & 22-27 where, in preparation for the weekly Sabbath, the Jews collected and baked or boiled extra manna because they could not do it on the day of the sabbath. In time the day before the sabbath came to be termed Preparation, which is what Mark called it at Mr 15:42Its also noteworthy that Luke calls the passover 'the festival of undermented cakes at Luke 22:1 Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting nearThe facts are that all the gospels expressly put it that jesus had eaten the passover lamb with his diciples in the upper roomMatt 26:19-20 "And the disciples did as Jesus ordered them, and they got things ready for the passover. When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciplesMark 14:17After evening had fallen he came with the twelve. 18And as they were reclining at the table and eatingLuke 22:14 At length when the hour came, he reclined at the table, and the apostles with him. 15And he said to them: I have greatly desired to eat this passover with YOU before I sufferJohn 13 doesnt mention passover specifically, but he is clearly speaking of the same night but in much more detail. Chapters 13-17 is the detailed discussion that took place while they were in the upper room and chapter 18 begins with Having said these things, Jesus went out with his disciples across the winter torrent of Kid′ron to where there was a garden, and he and his disciples entered into it from this point on John relates the account about Jesus arrest in the garden of gethsemane.

Based on what I read catching up on this thread, I still don't think we are even at the point that you understand what I am saying quite well enough. For example, you claim that I am trying to reconcile the synoptics and John which is not true. I tried to make it clear with my first post in this thread that I do believe they are in conflict. What I would like to do with this post is reset the conversation a little bit. Rather than having a battle of spitting off quick replies, lets take the time to do this right.I starting writing a long reply when I sort of came to the conclusion that what we have here is a problem of semantics. I am starting to see that perhaps when we are saying the word "Passover" that we are meaning different things. With that in mind I would like to propose a couple of definitions that make things more explicit.Passover Holiday - All the days that constitute the founding ritual in Exodus 12 including the Preparation, Feast, and week of the FOUB.
Passover Event - The evening of the actual plague event where the firstborn of Egypt were killed.
Passover Day - The day celebrated as a "high sabbath" consisting of the Passover Event plus the next morning through to the subsequent evening. This is the first day of the FOUB, the day the the Jews left Egypt. It is the day God instructed to hold as a "holy assembly" in Exodus 12:16.
Preparation Day - The daytime before the anniversary of the Passover Event when the lamb was sacrificed, feast was prepared, leavening burnt, etc.Now lets start fresh by figuring out where we agree.1. We both agree that the crucifixion happens after the anniversary of the Passover Event (the last supper) in the Synoptics.
2. We both agree that the crucifixion happens before the anniversary of the the Passover Event in John.
3. We both agree that the lambs were sacrificed on the 14thSo here I will describe where we perhaps still disagree and why is that important. Note that these may no longer be disagreements if we all accept the definitions above.1. We perhaps disagree on when the Passover Day actually is. I think it is the 15th and you think it is the 14th. This disagreement may be settled if you are only saying that Passover Holiday starts on the 14th. Why this is important is because it gives us insight into the authors of the Gospels, to their theological motivations, and to their understanding of Jewish tradition. I hope you will agree with me that it would be a significant difference for Jesus to be crucified before Passover Day versus on Passover Day versus after Passover Day for both the believer, the skeptic, and the scholar.
2. We perhaps disagree that it is possible for the lambs to be slaughtered on Passover Day, again stipulation given to the definitions above.As a side note, but I just wanted to mention it since there is a 3rd sub-thread concerning Peg's belief that the Preparation Day was the 13th. As I looked a little deeper online this weekend when I had 5 or 10 minutes, I WAS able to find a number of arguments similar to what Peg makes which is that the Preparation Day was the 13th. All the ones that I could find were fundamentalist Christian websites some even going as far as to say that the Jews didn't know how to read their own holy books and that they were sinfully celebrating the Passover wrong. I can't quite figure out why this matters to them so much as there is still quite the contradiction between the Synoptics and John regardless of when you date Passover. The only reason I mention this is that it seems that they are wrestling with part of the scripture that they are actually interpreting correctly which is the distinction between the Passover Day and the Preparation Day. This seems to be the only place were Peg and I agree and it is fundamental to understanding why I feel I am correct with regards to our disagreements.You mentioned that you want to keep this argument about scripture and thats fine. Lets start with the actually "historical" Passover Event. Lets deconstruct it. So starting with verse 6, God commands the lamb to be kept "until the fourteenth day". Just before evening begins, the slaughter the lambs and paint the door frames because that evening, the angel of death comes to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. They are supposed to be ready to leave, with not even enough time to use leaven in their bread. Daybreak of the next day is something important and they need to be ready. The curious thing to note about this passage is that God say, "Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread." but the range of dates is from "the fourteenth day of the month at evening", "until the twenty-first day of the month at evening". This is where some confusion gets introduced and is perhaps why Mark thinks that the FOUB starts on the 14th. If you count the days from the 14th to the 21st then there are 8 days if you are inclusive about the evenings on both of them. Either God cannot count, or this gives us a clue as to what they mean in Exodus when they say "at evening". I choose the latter.For me it seems obvious that the evening in verse 18 is in reference to the same as the evening in verse 6 and it is clear that they started eating the unleavened bread that night after the lambs were slaughtered.What is the "evening" after the lambs are slaughtered when the angel of death kills all the firstborn? The night that they had to get ready to leave the next morning and start eating unleavened bread? It is the 15th according to the way post-exilic Jews counted their days. That is the Passover Event. The night that God spared the firstborn Jews and brought the plague to the rest of Egypt. That happens on the 15th of Nisan, the prior day is when they do all the work to prepare to leave Egypt. With regards to the holiday, that day in particular is the anniversary of the Preparation Day which is the 14th. The Passover Event hadn't happened yet and if the sequencing is not enough to convince you, God even says that the FOUB starts that next morning (the same "day" as the Passover Event) as "this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt".So if the FOUB is on the day, immediatly after the evening of the Passover Event, we have other verses that help us drive this point home. So when this verse mentiones Passover, what exactly is it talking about? Well, it also happens to mention the FOUB as being on the 15th. So I would equate "on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover" as meaning something akin to my definition of Passover Holiday. You could only equate that phrase with the Passover Event if you reckon days according to modern standards with the days changing over at midnight.Some verses make the same distinction as above: Other verses make the distinction much clearer by stating specifically that the 14th is the Preparation Day. II Chronicles and Ezra make it clear that this mention of Passover much more alike to my definition of Passover Holiday which is everything up through the FOUB.The last thing to mention in support of this distinction is the "holy convocation" as described in Numbers 28 and elsewhere. This is described as is and in surrounding versus as compared to the Sabbath. You cannot do any work that day that you also could not do on Sabbath. No lamb slaughtering, no looking for leavening, no burning of leavening, no baking of bread, etc. It is a time of reflection and rememberance of the Exodus. This is the Passover Day according to my defintion and you will see how it fits in with the Gospels. This is somewhat nonsensical by Mark as I previously said. The first day of the FOUB is Passover Day is the day they were leaving Egypt after the plague, not the day they were killing lambs and painting their doorways. The whole concept of the FOUB is that they didn't have time to bake bread with leavening because they were getting the heck out of dodge. If Mark is talking about the daytime before the anniversary of Passover Event then he is talking about the Preparation Day plain and simple. Remember that when Mark was written there was no more temple and therefore no more sacrafices. The Jews for a long time now had been absorbing into different cultures and were experimenting with different ways of keeping their traditions alive. This helps date Mark and since the other Synoptics copy him it also dates them.Then there is nothing to suggest it is anything other than the same night, in fact Mark 15 says: So the evening of the anniversary of the Passover Event is when Jesus is arrested. The next morning is Passover Day, the high Sabbath when they are taking Jesus to trial. This is obviously weird but it is what it is.We know it is at least still the FOUB because: Which is also rediculous. But it is a time marker. What PD claims about them waiting until after the FOUB is not supported IMO. That same day: There is no indication that more time passed before the cruficixion therefore Jesus was crucified on Passover Day, the "real" first day of the FOUB.John is different as you know from several verses but this one the most distinct IMO: The day of Preparation here is with respect to Passover because it describes it as "that Sabbath was a high day". In other words, not just your run of the mill Sabbath. And since we knew from previous verses in John the proximity to Passover (his accusers wouldn't enter into the court) and the theology of Jesus as the Paschal Lamb, this day is therefore the Preparation Day for the Passover. The anniversary of the Passover Event and the subsequent Passover Day would have followed after Jesus was buried.So in the Synoptics you have: Preparation Day = 14th, Passover Day = 15th, Jesus CrucifiedIn John you have: Preparation Day = 14th, Jesus Crucified, Passover Day = 15th. Different order.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

hERICtic writes:
The confusion lies bc the word "Preparation Day" was often used. This could mean before the Passover day, or before the Sabbath. There is also a preparation for the Sabbath. So it tends to get confusing. Mark 15 is after the Passover, which is now the day of preparation for the Sabbath. Lambs are slain, evening meal comes, day changes, Passover is eaten and now its the day of preparation.hERICtic writes:
The slaying of the lambs is on Passover. Yet the synoptics state the slaying of the lambs occured one the first day of unleavened bread.This cannot possibly be correct. But it does not work. Mark states its the first day of unleavened bread, when the lamb was slain. So its an open and shut case there is something wrong here. They should be two seperate days. I have read though, that after 70, the days were combined. Evidence? No. Still have the sites which states this? No. Could I find it on the internet? Probably. But it has no bearing on this debate though. Its clear the day the lambs were slain, later that night or early the next day, Jesus ate the Passover. That does not make any sense Peg. Nothing in John indicates it was a Passover meal. Nothing. In fact, if its the day of preparation for the Passover, it would be the day before the Passover, the 13th. The Passover meal could not have been eaten yet. Heck, the lambs were not slain yet.How can noon, on the day of preparation day for the Passover, be AFTER the Passover meal? The Passover meal was eaten late on the day of Passover or early next day. Its not in harmony. We are talking about the slaying of the lamb. The lambs were slain on Passover. The preparation day of the Passover is the day before. This was PD's argument. It does have merit. I have read that the preparation for the Passover can also refer to the day of Passover since thats the day the lambs are prepared. Either way, there is a problem. Remember, the meal for Passover was eaten at the end of the day, beginning of the next day. In the synoptics, its clear Jesus eats his meal at the end of the Passover or beginning of the next day. In John, Jesus was killed at noon. You want the last meal to be eaten before his death, but that would be impossible. Its the day of preparation FOR the Passover. Either its the day before Passover or the day of. If its the day of, Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal yet. No. Peg, we are talking about John. We both agree the synoptics state he ate the Passover lamb. John makes no such admission. He flat out contradicts it. John has the same events, but occuring on a different day. His day is the preparation FOR the Passover. This can only mean the day before Passover or the day of. Purple Dawn states its the day before, I say the day of Passover. More evidence leans towards my view since Jesus represents the lamb. Think about it.John goes out his way to compare Jesus over and over to the lamb. Josephus states the lambs were slain between 12-3. When was Jesus crucified? When did he die? Were his legs broken? Lamb a sacrifice, Jesus a sacrifice.The synoptics agree Jesus ate his last meal AFTER the slaying, toward the end of the Passover day. Jesus is crucified the day after the lambs are slain.In John, the lambs were not even slain yet, since its the day of Preparation of Passover.

Hey Jazzsn,I didnt read your entire post through yet, but I did want to address some key issues. I think this is where you are getting confused. God (I mean the author) can count. Its an 8 day festivel. First day is Passover, followed by seven days of the FOUB. This site should help clarify the confusion: Are There Eight Days of Unleavened Bread So far every scripture you have given clearly states the Passover is the 14th, the FOUB is the day after. Which is what I stated from the beginning. I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. Not one verse you gave states the 14th is the preparation day. In fact, every single one I believe, states the Passover is the 14th.So you have me very confused at you angle.My point: Synoptics have the lamb slain. Jesus eats the lamb after the slaying, either late that night or early next day. The lambs are slain on Passover.What verse that you have given changes any of this?The only thing I can think of, is that to you, a preparation day can be on the actual Passover day, since they are technically preparing the lamb. If that is what you are saying, I agree.

I have been saying over and over that the whole celebration was called the passover...not just the eating of the passover lamb.It was an 8 day celebration which started with the preparation of the lambs on the 13th, then the eating of the lambs at the beginning of the 14th, then the preparation of the unfermented cakes late on the 14th, then the partaking of the cakes on at the beginning of the 15 - 21st.the preparation of the 'passover' could mean the unfermented cakes because the entire 8 day festival was called 'the passover'...not just the 14th.Before i go on further, do you understand that John could have been referring to the entire 8 day celebration as 'the passover'?And do you get that if he was, then the preparation he was talking about was the preparation of the 2nd meal of the passover which was the unfermented cakes on the 15th?

Part Deux....First, great, indepth post Jazzns. Well thought out...wrong, but well thought out nonetheless. Ok, its only your ending overall thats incorrect. Not sure how you can still arrive at your conclusion when you've went through so much trouble explaining everything. This is where we have a problem. Just a simple question. ok, questions. Im greedy.The day the lambs are slain, is this the 14th? Yes or no?
The day the lambs are slain, is this called Passover? Yes or no? I agree. It is the FOUB. Mark 15 occurs after the lambs are slain in Mark 14. Evening arrives after the slaying of the lambs, so this means Mark 15 is the 15th. The day after Passover. Nope. Passover is the day the lambs are slain. You gave plenty of scripture for this. I'm not sure how you keep missing this key point. Jesus could not be killed on Passover in the synoptics bc after the slaying of the lambs, he eats his last meal and the NEXT day he is crucified. Could his accusers enter the court on Passover? If Jesus is the lamb, why is he killed the day before Passover? Lambs were slain on Passover.

Peg, we have a crucial difference here. Before we go any further, we need to agree on this issue.You are stating that the Passover meal was eaten at the beginning of the 14th. I say its the end/beginning the 15th. This is very important.In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening." Exodus 12:18
"Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty" Exodus 23:15"The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt." Exodus 34:18If you start from the end of the 13th/beginning of the 14th, you get eight days. Not seven.Also, you're ignoring what the synoptics state.Mark 14: 12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"
13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."Are you suggesting that up until evening when Jesus sits down to eat his last meal, this is the 13th? So the FOUB is now the 13th? Can you also show me in the OT where it states the lamb is slain on the 13th?Also, its impossible for his last meal to be eaten early 14th. We know from scripture the Passover is the 14th.We also know: Exodus 29:38, 39 This, moreover, is what thou shalt offer upon the altar, two lambs of a year old day by day, continually: the one lamb, shalt thou offer in the morning, and the second lamb, shalt thou offer between the eveningsFrom the above, we know lambs are sacrified in the morning, then the evening, which would be the END of the day.Passover is the 14th, the day the lambs are slain. Jesus could not have eaten his last meal early 14th, for two reasons.1) Lambs slain on 14th. Not 13th are you claim.
2) You could suggest I suppose that when the 14th began at evening, the lambs were slain and then he ate his meal after. But that is the next problem. On the 14th, the first slayings occur in the morning. The second, the evening. So the Passover supper would be the end of the day.

im seeing a contradiction in your post. you've officially confused me. According to scripture the passover lamb was eating at the very start of the 14th...which starts at sundown - 6pmish.In the hours before...say 3pm ,4pm, 5pm, this is the time when the preparations would be made of the lamb. It would have to be killed, gutted, cleaned and roasted.... this would all be taking place on the 13th because the 14th doesnt begin until sundown approx 6 oclock in the evening.Exodus 29:38-39 has nothing to do with the passover celebration. This is the specifications for making somone a priest.
Vs 1 And this is the thing that you are to do to them to sanctify them for acting as priests to me:..." I never said they were slain on the 13th...i said they were prepared on the 13th in the hours before the 14th began which is at sundown.2) if you are basing this on Exodus 29, then you are applying th wrong scripture to the passover.

Please show me where it states the lambs were to be eaten at the beginning of the 14th.Also, why did you ignore the part where I showed you it would have to be the end of the 14th, not the beginning (in regards to the seven days of bread, not eight)?

Peg, in quote 1, you state the lambs were killed, gutted, cleaned and roasted. In quote 2, you say you never said the lambs were slain on the 13th.How does one kill, gut a lamb on the 13th, but not slay it on the 13th?

here is exodus 12:3-10read it carefully and you will notice 2 things1. The lamb was to be eaten on the 14th between the two evenings - this means it was to be eaten between sundown and the dark of night.2. None of the lamb was to be left over in the morning - therefore they were not permitted to eat any passover lambs after this time. If there was some leftover, it had to be burned with fire. i wanted to clarify which day you thought the lamb was being eaten before i went on. The above scripture should show you that there is no way they would have eaten any lambs at the end of the 14th for it was forbidden.

LOLoh yeah i did too...sorry about that.Well, i guess they were slain, they just were not eaten until the beginning of the passover....6pmish on the 14th.The thing is, they only had a short time to actually eat the lamb...it had to be properly cooked and a whole lamb on a spitroast would take a 2-3 hours.The time they had to eat the lamb was 'between the two evenings' and according to some scholars, as well as the Karaite Jews and Samaritans, this is the time between sunset and actual darkness. This is why the lamb had to be ready to eat.... but the actual celebration began with the eating, not with the slaughtering.

Well, I tried my best but I think I am just about done here. I don't know what to say.You seem like a nice guy, but with no disrespected intended, I think are unwilling or incapable of understanding what I am saying. Proof for this is simply that you continue time and again to reflect my own ideas incorrectly. If you can't understand what I am saying, then we can't have a conversation. This, time after time I have said that YES the lambs are slain on the 14th. Straight from the top of my previous post. If we cannot find common ground on the fact of what I am saying, I cannot imagine that our prospects for finding common ground on the issue are very good.If you research this issue in depth, the only people who really believe that the 14th is Passover are SOME sects of fundamentalist Christianity. Peg who IIRC is a JW is one of those sects. (I hope she corrects me if I am wrong). Jews themselves, Hebrew scholars, Bible scholars, and most everyone else who understands the issue agree that Passover is the 15th. The issue so uncontroversial that it is in fact difficult to find any real debate on this issue. (I would LOVE for anyone to link to a scholarly debate, I simply cannot find one online anywhere).So you can take solace in the last word here on this. I'll take solace in being on the side with the scholars, the reputable sources, and the actual customs of the people who practice the tradition.If anything interesting happens in this thread I'll pop back in but for now it seems like sort of waste of time to be repeatedly misquoted and misunderstood regardless if there is no intended malice. If you think I am being unfair and that you have represented my ideas correctly then I urge you to go back and read my last post one more time and see if the replies you made have anything to do with what I was saying. At all.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson