Passover problems in the Gospels

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xcept that the jews began their day from sundown to sundown.

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IOW, the 15th began at sundown.....otherwise your day is only 12 hours long.

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As I explained, the sunset to sunset was picked up while in Babylon.It probably wasn't at the time of Moses. Show me that it was at the time of Moses.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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You and Jazzns keep stating I do not understand, but neither of you actually is using scripture to back up your arguments.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I never disagreed that times do change. But the Passover is law according to god. Are you telling me Jesus violated this law and they didnt eat it on the 14th? I'm not sure why you keep bringing up sunset to sunset, I am quite aware of how the Jews kept time. Which is what I have been stating all along. YOU were the one who kept saying Passover, the actual day, was the 15th. I was the one who stated it was the 14th. Yes, at the end of the 14th, early 15th, the Passover meal was eaten. I agree! To a point. Josephus states they started slaughtering at noon. But I do agree it was twiligtht, as per scripture. Again, another moot point. I agree. Hence why I have no problem with someone claiming Passover today is the 15th. But I have no doubt, when Jesus sat down to eat the Passover, he was following his fathers rules. Passover is the 14th. Well, I can throw it right back and state show me evidence in 33 that Jesus failed to follow the OT laws regarding when Passover is, right?What is more likely? That Jesus, his followers, the Jews, the Pharisees decided to forsake gods laws in the OT and ignored that the Passover is on the 14th or that they followed gods protocol?But again, neither of us can actually offer evidence as to what day this actually occured, it just makes more sense that it was the 14th.But as I have said over and over, the day does not matter.In the synoptics, Jesus eats his last meal on the day the lamb is slaughtered or the beginning of the next day. The following afternoon Jesus is crucified.In John, Jesus eats his last meal the same day, the Passover, when he is killed.Jesus is the symbolic sacrificial lamb.

what you explain is again contrary to scripture.Leviticus 23:32 "....From evening to evening YOU should observe YOUR sabbath. im sure you'll disagree lol

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Leviticus 23:32 "....From evening to evening YOU should observe YOUR sabbath.

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Leviticus was a priestly writing. Written after Babylonian influence.Exodus and Deuteronomy don't really make it clear if after sunset it is considered the next day. I think that is why hERICtic is getting confused.I'm not disagreeing with you concerning how the passover is eaten in the first century or when it is. I'm looking at the possibility that at the time the Exodus the Hebrews would have reckoned the day from sunrise to sunrise as the Egyptians did.The Jews have also been under sunrise to sunrise rulers since the exile and have had to adjust festivals accordingly.As I said, it really is irrelevant to his argument. We have to know what they actually did in the first century.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

heERICtic writes:
The day of Preparation for the Passover, is the Passover. They prepare the lambs. I think I told PD, it can mean the day before or the day of, since the lamb was called the Passover. Lambs killed at twilight, which would be around the time of the death of Jesus. But you just created another problem then. In the synoptics, Jesus is killed the day after the lambs are slain. You just stated above that Jesus was crucified the day BEFORE Passover. I am at a loss as to why everyone keeps telling me when a day starts and ends. I know this and have stated this from the beginning. Sheesh. heERICtic writes:
Also, John 18: 28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.Here, it clearly states they Passover has not been eaten. Obviously then, its the day of the Passover. It does not say early in the day. It states early in the morning. Morning started at sunup. So this would be 12 hours later! Too late for them to have eaten the Passover meal. The meal is to start at the end of the day/beginning of the next.In other words, lets say a day end/begins at 6pm. You use this general time as I do. At 5;59, the meal begins. Lambs are slaughtered afternoon, meal is served, its 5:59. At 6pm, next day begins. Now the scripture above states its early morning, which means its now 12 hours after the day began. Remember, the meal is to be eaten as the new day ends/begins. Not 12 hours later. So obviously, the reason they could not enter is because they had not eaten the meal yet, since it was to occur towards the end of the day. That is a meal during Passover. It is NOT the Passover meal. Its the Passover meal itself which would prevent them from entering the Hall.heERICtic writes:
Simple question. Jesus is called the lamb of god. Does it make more sense to state he was symbolically the lamb of god the day after the lambs were killed or the day of the lambs being killed? You just agreed with me. If Jesus was killed on the day the lambs were slain, then its the Passover. The lambs were killed on the day called Passover.Ignore the 14th or 15th.As you stated and agreed with me, symbolically, Jesus is the Passover lamb. Both slain on the same day, dying about the same time. So Jesus was killed on the day the lambs were slain.Makes perfect sense.In the synoptics, Jesus is killed the day AFTER the lambs were slain. The next day.

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I never disagreed that times do change. But the Passover is law according to god. Are you telling me Jesus violated this law and they didnt eat it on the 14th? I'm not sure why you keep bringing up sunset to sunset, I am quite aware of how the Jews kept time.

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Good grief! A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

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But as I have said over and over, the day does not matter.

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As have I, so stop arguing about it. If you keep arguing about it then show evidence of how the event was practiced in the first century.

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In the synoptics, Jesus eats his last meal on the day the lamb is slaughtered or the beginning of the next day. The following afternoon Jesus is crucified.

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I disagree. The synoptics have Jesus crucified on a preparation day and the chief priests said they wouldn't do anything during the festival.He can't be crucified on a preparation day before a sabbath and on passover day.

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In John, Jesus eats his last meal the same day, the Passover, when he is killed.

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Are you changing your position?
From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John?Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal.

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Jesus is the symbolic sacrificial lamb.

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Symbolic of what?

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

It has to be said - it's a nice juxtoposition. The slaughtering of the lambs occurring as they slaughter Jesus. The lambs themselves symbolising the sacrifice YHWH asked the Israelites make before smearing the blood over the door so that the righteous could be identified and they would be spared God's wrath.Jesus represents the sacrifice of the lamb which represents the means to avoiding YHWH's wrath which is the path to salvation. That John chose to have the two events occur at the same time is symbolism, used to get the reader to draw the two stories together and to think of Jesus in a certain fashion. The actual lambs saved the Israelites, the symbolic lamb (Jesus) saves the world.

I agree that's probably the purpose of the writer.It is a shame that Christianity ruins it by also claiming he was a sacrifice for sin, since the sacrifice of the Passover lamb had nothing to do with sin. The sin issue was Paul's theme.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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I never disagreed that times do change. But the Passover is law according to god. Are you telling me Jesus violated this law and they didnt eat it on the 14th? I'm not sure why you keep bringing up sunset to sunset, I am quite aware of how the Jews kept time.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good gried right back at ya! What does this have to do with anything? God explicitly tells the Jews the Passover is the 14th. Good grief right back at ya again! I have said this over and over! I agree with you! Tell me where I havent! That is NOT what we are debating. I have said since my the beginning the lambs were slain on the 14th, late 14th or early 15th the meal is eaten.I have never deviated from this. It has NOTHING to do with our debate. I'm not even sure why you keep harping on this one aspect.In the synoptics, the lambs are slain. Jesus eats his last meal AFTER the lambs are slain. The NEXT day, after the lambs are slain, Jesus is killed. I have said this numerous times.quote:
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But as I have said over and over, the day does not matter.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oi Vey! How many times have I said to drop it, that I'm not arguing about the day, that I'm debating the time frame as to when the lambs were killed? Jazzsn and you keep bringing it up. Not me. Once you bring it up, I try to clarify it by showing you scripture (which I have done numerous times) that Passover is the 14th. I could care less what day you call it.In the synoptics, for the upteenth time, the last meal of Jesus is AFTER the lambs are slain. In John, the lambs are never slain.quote:
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In the synoptics, Jesus eats his last meal on the day the lamb is slaughtered or the beginning of the next day. The following afternoon Jesus is crucified.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How can you disagree?Luke 22: 7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.We know the lambs are killed on this day. Later that day, be it late 14th or early 15th, Jesus eats his last meal. Obviously its a Passover meal. But ignore that, call it just a Passover seder. Its a moot point. The main aspect is that on this day, the lambs are slain. This is crucial.So we know the lambs are slain.Mark 14: 17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."So now, this would be the next day. Friday.Mark 15:1Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.Still next day.Mark 15:42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body.Day before the Sabbath. Evening is arriving, so it would soon be the next day. The Sabbath, Saturday.Its really not important what we call the day, only that we know the lambs were slain on one day, the next day Jesus is crucified ,with another day arriving. Some say Wed. he was killed, some say Thursday. Those are different debates though.quote:
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In John, Jesus eats his last meal the same day, the Passover, when he is killed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not at all. I do not think that is my quote above. I think it is a partial quote, combined with someone elses.This is where you are gettting confused. Jesus ate the Passover meal in the synoptics, not in John. In John, hes killed on the Passover, the day the lambs are slain. Hence why he could not eat the Passover meal, he was already crucified.Even your site you gave asserts this.Here is some scripture again (not from your website, didnt want to confuse you)John 18:28 Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover.The reason they havent eaten the Passover meal yet, is that it was to occur late in the day, early next day, their last meal. Its the day of Passover, the morning.John:14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, Behold your King!You're reading it as the Preparation Day for Passover. It does not say that. It states the Preparation Day of THE Passover. Big difference. The Passover was the meal with the lamb.There is a preparation day before Passover, just like there are preparation days before Sabbaths. But "the Passover" is the meal itself.quote:
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Jesus is the symbolic sacrificial lamb.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See. Thats the kicker, how we know Jesus was killed on Passover. Modulous explained it very well.Jesus=the lamb. He is called the lamb numerous times in John. Jesus is also called the lamb in other books in the NT. Jesus is the lamb. I cannot seem to find a great site which parellels side by side the similarities of Jesus and the lamb, but hopefully this can shed some light on it.http://www.godandscience.org/...s/passover.html#scITh0NH6Fog

I have the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

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How can you disagree?

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Easy. I've explained this twice. We don't really know the time frame after Jesus ate and when he went to the Mount of Olives. Since the chief priest said they wouldn't do anything until after the feast, which would imply the FOUB and not just a meal; they would not have arrested Jesus during the feast. (Logistically, I don't think they had time to do all they supposedly did.)Since they have already eaten the Passover meal in Mark, the preparation day can't be the preparation for the Passover meal/sabbath.In the Synoptics, Jesus is not crucified at the same time as the Passover lambs.

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Not at all. I do not think that is my quote above. I think it is a partial quote, combined with someone elses.

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Slow down and read what people post. There's no excuse for not checking your own opening post to check the quote. It is your quote. Read your OP and familiarize yourself with your position.

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You're reading it as the Preparation Day for Passover. It does not say that. It states the Preparation Day of THE Passover. Big difference. The Passover was the meal with the lamb.

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There is a preparation day before Passover, just like there are preparation days before Sabbaths. But "the Passover" is the meal itself.

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You're kidding right? This is why I feel you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Not a good reputation to start.I've already agreed that Jesus did not eat the Passover meal in John.
I've already agreed that Jesus did eat the Passover meal in the Synoptics.Therefore, in the book of John, Jesus was not crucified on the Day of Passover.Looking at the Book of Mark, I think a case can be made the Jesus probably wasn't crucified on the Day of Passover either.In all four Gospels, Jesus was killed and buried on the Day of Preparation.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

I could say the same about you. Jassnz and Peg wont even accept that there is an error between the two...but I'm the one you think this about? quote:
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How can you disagree?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok let me back up a bit. Explain how your points (which you have just described above) have any bearing on our friendly debate(at least I would love to still think so).As for the synoptics,I have already stated numerous times its John, that compares Jesus to the Passover lambs. So what difference does it make in the synoptics? None. Its John that NEEDS Jesus to be the sacrifice on Passover, not in the synoptics. Heck Modulous even joined in and explained why I have said over and over in John Jesus is the symbolic lamb.quote:
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Not at all. I do not think that is my quote above. I think it is a partial quote, combined with someone elses.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where did I state this? Please show me. You accuse me of making the above statement, when I did not. I told you it was partially my quote, with someone elses. Then you just accued me again of being "lazy" and not checking the opening post. I could now accuse you of the same. Please show me where I made such a claim?This is what you accused me of saying:Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John?
Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal.Here is my actual quote, refer back to post 1:Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover?As I stated, its two quotes combined. One from someone else.I have stated my point since post 1, John could not have eaten the Passover meal.Your apology will be accepted. Also, you claim I have no concept of Jewish time. Where did you come up with this? Not only am I aware of how the Jews told time, I can back it up with quite a bit of scripture. I am also aware that there is an argument that some Jews told time from sunrise to sunrise.quote:
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You're reading it as the Preparation Day for Passover. It does not say that. It states the Preparation Day of THE Passover. Big difference. The Passover was the meal with the lamb.
There is a preparation day before Passover, just like there are preparation days before Sabbaths. But "the Passover" is the meal itself.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why am I kidding? Looking up "the Passover", each time refers to the meal. So what are we arguing about then? Lets break this down then. I am having trouble accepting that you feel its the day before PassoverJohn 13: 1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.[a]
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.This is the last meal Jesus ate. Notice it states before the Passover feast. Now an argument could be made that its refering to the Passover meal or just a meal in general, that the Passover was to occur the following night. It goes on to say that evening hits. So now its another day or soon to be. As thsi day hits, Jesus is killed in the afternoon.Do I understand you correctly? On this day, Jesus is killed, is the day before the Passover? This is exactly why your posts drive me batty! LOL! You have said over and over that the day of preparation is the day before Passover. Notice what you just claimed. Neither was crucified on the day of Passover, but on the day of preparation. Now read what you also wrote, in this same post:You just stated a few quotes ago: You went from neither eating a Passover meal, to Jesus eating one in the synoptics.You also stated: Again, you just claimed that the Pasover meal was eaten in Mark...when you just previously claimed the Passover meal was NOT eaten!Now do you understand why I have a hard time following you? Also, I am totally confused on how you can claim Jesus was killed on the day before Passover, when the synpotics state Jesus was killed the day after the lambs were slain.Do you agree or disagree that on the day the lambs are slain, is Passover?Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

My prediction is this thread is just about ready to stall. This is my last post as a participant.Your position is inconsistent and I don't really have time to play games.I have actually explained my discovery concerning the chief priests in Mark 4 times. (Message 36, Message 41, Message 51, and Message 56) The point being that if the chief priests meant what they said, Jesus probably wasn't crucified on Passover, especially since he was buried on a sabbath preparation day.

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As for the synoptics,I have already stated numerous times its John, that compares Jesus to the Passover lambs. So what difference does it make in the synoptics? None. Its John that NEEDS Jesus to be the sacrifice on Passover, not in the synoptics. Heck Modulous even joined in and explained why I have said over and over in John Jesus is the symbolic lamb.

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I haven't disagreed that the lamb is an issue in the book of John. The lamb issue wasn't part of your opening post. (That's Message 1) In your opening post, your question was whether Jesus ate the Passover meal in the book of John.

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This is what you accused me of saying:

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Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John?
Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal.

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Here is my actual quote, refer back to post 1:

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Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover?

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This is what I wrote in Message 51. The italicized portion is from your OP and is exactly what you quoted above. The next paragraph is mine and not attributed to you.When you quoted them in Message 55, you ran them together.

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I have stated my point since post 1, John could not have eaten the Passover meal.

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I assume you mean Jesus and I have already agreed several times that in the book of John, Jesus does not appear to have eaten the Passover meal. (Message 36, Message 41, Message 51 and Message 56)Apology not extended.

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Now do you understand why I have a hard time following you?

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Join the club! Good Day.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

I truly hope that is not the case. I have not changed my opinion at all.Since post 1, I have stated Jesus was crucified on the day after Passover. In John, on Passover.You have stated a few times Jesus ate the Passover meal. Then stated he was killed on the preparation day of Passover. This means its the day before.How can Jesus eat the Passover meal and yet be killed the day before Passover? You have never addressed this issue. But this is where you lose me. I really do not understand what you are trying to state. I have asked you quite a few times if the lambs were slain on Passover. Unless I missed it, I do not think you answered the question how this could occur, but then state its was the preparation day he was killed on.The synoptics state Jesus was killed the day after the lambs were slain. This is crystal clear. So you lose me by stating its on the day of preparation.quote:
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As for the synoptics,I have already stated numerous times its John, that compares Jesus to the Passover lambs. So what difference does it make in the synoptics? None. Its John that NEEDS Jesus to be the sacrifice on Passover, not in the synoptics. Heck Modulous even joined in and explained why I have said over and over in John Jesus is the symbolic lamb.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But you ARE disagreeing with me! In John, Jesus is the symbolic lamb. I even gave you a site that compares the lambs aspects with what Jesus went through. How can you agree that Jesus is the lamb, then state it was not the Passover? Again, this is where you lose me.hERICtic writes:
Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover?quote:
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This is what you accused me of saying:
Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John?
Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal.Here is my actual quote, refer back to post 1:Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is what I wrote in Message 51.PurpleDawn writes:
Are you changing your position?
From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John?Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal. But it does look like you are quoting me. All of it. You didnt restate that the next words were yours. I even stated its a partial quote from me but the rest is someone elses. You didnt admit they were your words. Instead you told me to pay attention to my posts. Which is what I stated. I knew the second part were not my words, but if you read it, it seems like you are quoting me entirely, stressing only part of my words.quote:
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I have stated my point since post 1, John could not have eaten the Passover meal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You need to lighten up a lil. I was joking around.quote:
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Now do you understand why I have a hard time following you?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Im sorry you feel that way. I just reread all your posts and I think the biggest obstacle in our lack of communication is that you mention the "Preparation Day" quite often. The problem, at least in my opinion, is that we would be talking about Passover and you'll mention in some respect a "Preparation Day". I feel that perhaps at times you meant it as the day before the Sabbath, while I was taking it as the day before the Passover each and every time.So it gets very confusing when you say Jesus was killed on the preparation Day, but ate a Passover meal. I'm taking it as you are refering to the day before the Passover, which is why I kept quetioning how could Jesus eat a Passover meal?Regardless of your decision, no hard feelings. I still greatly enjoy reading your posts. Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Again, your comments are out of harmony with scripture.leviticus 27:34 "these are the commandments that God gave to Moses as commands to the sons of Isreal on Mount Sinai"Leviticus 26:46 "these are the regulations and judicial decision God set between himself and the sons of Israel in Mount Si′nai by means of Moses"and considering the Pentacheut was originally in one scroll, leviticus being a part of it, proves that Moses was the original writer. the passover was practiced according to the mosaic law... that law never changed and it still hasnt changed.If we are to believe the jews of the first century were practicing customs other then what their law directed, you would need some pretty firm evidence for it. I dont believe there is any evidence to suggest the jews did not recon their day from sundown to sundown.The gospels have Judas leaving the upper room, after the passover meal, in the dark of night... not during the daylight hours but in the dark of night.Jesus trial was at night, he was then sent to the governers palace in the early morning hours...when the roosters were crowing. The evidence does not support a daytime passover celebration.