Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Passover problems in the Gospels
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 31 of 107 (546711)
02-13-2010 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jazzns
02-13-2010 12:27 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
jazzns writes:
Can you please explain how you get the 13th out of that? It can be forgiven to mistake the 14th as the start of Passover but the 13th is just wacky.
well you've misunderstood me. I said the passover began on the 14th which was at the end of the 13th.
jazzns writes:
Come to think of it, I can sort of see what you are doing, you are reversing the way the evenings are reckoned. You seem to be getting caught up in the language a bit. When these verses talk about the evening of the 14th, it means the 15th not the start of the 14th.
Let me see if i've got this straight.... the scriptures you posted clearly identify the 14th as the day that the passover was to be eaten (which began after sundown on the 14th), but you say that this really means the passover is on the 15th. I dont get that.
Jazzns writes:
Not that it matters too much though, there are no numbered days in the Gospels and the relative time markers make it pretty clear that the Synoptics and John are in contradiction.
there are no contradictions between the gospels and john as to when the passover took place. People are confusing the different aspects of the entire passover celebration...which was more then eating one meal.
When John says They themselves did not enter into the governor’s palace, that they might not get defiled but might eat the passover. (Joh 18:28) it wasnt because the passover meal had not yet taken place. He made that statement early in the day, which, if you take into consideration the jewish reconing of a day beginning at sunset, then it would have been after the following sunrise...or early in the morning. This is in harmony with Johns account about Jesus arrest during the night and being held at the governers palace until morning. The verse before this one tells us about the cock crowing....which they do early in the morning just before the sun rises.
Also, the passover did not only consist of the one meal of lamb on the night of the 14th. The entire period, including Passover day and the Festival of Unfermented Cakes was often called Passover. After the initial meal of the lamb, there was a compuslory peace offering made on the following day, Nisan 15, which was the first day of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes.
So it was this second offering that the Jews were afraid they might not be able to eat if they entered Pilate's residence.
Perhaps you are confusing the compuslory offering of the 15th with the eating of the slaughtered lamb on the 14th?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jazzns, posted 02-13-2010 12:27 AM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 6:56 AM Peg has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 107 (546722)
02-13-2010 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by hERICtic
02-12-2010 10:19 PM


Re: Passover is not the 15th.
quote:
You originally stated Passover started on the 15th. You're contradicting yourself now. The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th, as you admitted. The 14th, as per the OT, per scripture is the Passover.
Not really. You're making more out of the numbers than necessary for the point you're trying to make.
They slaughter the passover lamb, they eat the passover meal, the FOUB starts the next day. That was the order in the OT.
The tradition of reckoning the day from sunset to sunset may have been a later Jewish custom picked up from Babylon.
Leviticus and sections of Exodus are priestly writings from when they were in Babylon. So the thoughts can be conflicting.
Also remember in the 1st century, there were very strict rules about working on the Sabbath. More so than in the OT. Passover is considered a sabbath day.
To denote the day I'm going to use 6pm to 6pm.
So what Jazzns and I are saying is that on the 14th the lamb was slaughtered or sacrificed. This takes time. All the blood had to be drained out etc. Since no work was allowed on a Sabbath, they couldn't do the sacrifice and the meal preparation on the sabbath.
So sometime between 6pm to 6pm on the 14th the lamb and the meal were prepared. The lamb is to be slaughtered on the 14th.
6:01pm is now the 15th. The meal has to be eaten before morning. The following morning, which is still the 15th, the FOUB begins. The FOUB doesn't allow regular work supposedly.
Even if they slaughtered the lamb after 6pm on the 14th and ate the Passover meal at night on the 14th and the the FOUB started after 6pm on the 15th. Jesus was still eating a Passover meal.
Judaism did a lot of changing through the years while they were in exile and after the destruction of the second temple. They were influenced, just like Christianity was, by those that ruled them and the religions around them.
Who knows, in the original Exodus story, day may have been reckoned from sunrise to sunrise and the lamb was sacrificed at sunset and eaten in the middle of the night and the 15th started at sunrise the next morning.
But given the strict rules concerning work on the Sabbath, I would say in the first century, the Passover was probably on the 15th that started at 6pm.
But, like I said, the number of the day is really irrelevant to the point you are trying to present. I feel the authors of the Synoptics and the author of John were implying that Jesus ate the Passover meal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by hERICtic, posted 02-12-2010 10:19 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 33 of 107 (546728)
02-13-2010 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Peg
02-12-2010 10:30 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
Peg writes:
his diciples assumed nothing. the account clearly states that they did not know the reason why Jesus was sending Judas out or for what purpose.
"but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him....some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor."
How you draw such a conclusion from this verse is beyond me.
Peg,
Jesus in John is called the lamb of god. Why? He symbolizes the lamb. He is killed when the lambs are killed, noon. When are the lambs killed? On Passover.
John 19: 13When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
The day of Preparation for the Passover, is the Passover. They prepare the lambs.
Jumping back a second...
Also, John 18: 28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.
Here, it clearly states they Passover has not been eaten. Obviously then, its the day of the Passover.
Simple question. Jesus is called the lamb of god. Does it make more sense to state he was symbolically the lamb of god the day after the lambs were killed or the day of the lambs being killed?
Thanks.
Off to work.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Peg, posted 02-12-2010 10:30 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Peg, posted 02-13-2010 9:28 PM hERICtic has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 34 of 107 (546731)
02-13-2010 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Peg
02-13-2010 1:42 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
PD writes:
Not really. You're making more out of the numbers than necessary for the point you're trying to make.
They slaughter the passover lamb, they eat the passover meal, the FOUB starts the next day. That was the order in the OT.
You're confusing what Jazzns stated, then arguing with me about something I agree with, concering your viewpoint. Remember, you stated Passover is the 15th. I think you meant to state they ate the last meal on the 15th. Its a moot point.
PD writes:
The tradition of reckoning the day from sunset to sunset may have been a later Jewish custom picked up from Babylon.
Leviticus and sections of Exodus are priestly writings from when they were in Babylon. So the thoughts can be conflicting.
Also remember in the 1st century, there were very strict rules about working on the Sabbath. More so than in the OT. Passover is considered a sabbath day.
Prepareing the lambs is not work. Heck, the OT clearly states this is when the lamb is to be slaughtered. I even gave the scripture from the OT as well as the NT which states its the Passover, the lambs are being killed.
PD writes:
To denote the day I'm going to use 6pm to 6pm.
So what Jazzns and I are saying is that on the 14th the lamb was slaughtered or sacrificed. This takes time. All the blood had to be drained out etc. Since no work was allowed on a Sabbath, they couldn't do the sacrifice and the meal preparation on the sabbath.
Thats not what Jazzsn is saying. He clearly states a few times after Jesus eats his last meal, that the next morning is STILL the eve of Passover. Hes placing the last meal the day BEFORE the Passover, trying to reconcile it with John. Jazzns is arguing opposite of what Peg is.
PD writes:
So sometime between 6pm to 6pm on the 14th the lamb and the meal were prepared. The lamb is to be slaughtered on the 14th.
6:01pm is now the 15th. The meal has to be eaten before morning. The following morning, which is still the 15th, the FOUB begins. The FOUB doesn't allow regular work supposedly.
Even if they slaughtered the lamb after 6pm on the 14th and ate the Passover meal at night on the 14th and the the FOUB started after 6pm on the 15th. Jesus was still eating a Passover meal.
LOL! I agree with all this! I stated it does not matter if you wish to call it the 14th or the 15th. I clearly stated Jesus was killed the day AFTER Passover. Thats my entire point. You agree with me that the lambs were killed, its Passover. The next day Jesus is crucified.
Jazzns is saying Jesus was killed on the Passover.
I do disagree with you on the aspect that you keep saying its the 15th, when the OT clearly states it must be on the 14th. Using todays time, it would be the 15th. But again, a moot point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Peg, posted 02-13-2010 1:42 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2010 10:34 AM hERICtic has replied
 Message 37 by Jazzns, posted 02-13-2010 2:16 PM hERICtic has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 35 of 107 (546732)
02-13-2010 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jazzns
02-12-2010 11:44 PM


Re: Lets do this together.
Jazzsn writes:
So ask yourself this. Why does every single source that you can find say that it is the 15th? In fact, your OWN SOURCE says that it is the 15th!
LOM Loans – Financial information and loan guides. (the link that YOU provided)
If we use evening/erev uniformly through Scripture, then the evening of the fourteenth of Aviv is near the end of the fourteenth. We see clearly that the Paschal lamb was kept until the fourteenth day and was then sacrificed near the end of that day. At midnight of the fifteenth (same night, but new day had begun) G-d passed over Israel, and in the wee early hours Pharaoh demanded Israel leave Egypt. What day did Israel leave Egypt? "They journeyed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the next day after the Passover the sons of Israel started out boldly in the sight of all the Egyptians." Numbers 33:3 Now this makes sense. When we try to place the Passover at the beginning of the fourteenth, we end up with Israel girded and sandal-footed having no time for the bread to rise, ready to hurry out of Egypt in ... twenty-four hours. Doesn't make a lot of sense, huh? But by correctly placing Passover near end of fourteenth, we see the purpose of being ready to leave asap that night -- the day had already change from the fourteenth to the fifteenth.
Im off to work, so I will address this one issue. You're creating a strawman to begin with. My entire point is to show Jesus ate his last meal AFTER the lambs were slaughtered. In John, the lambs are not slaughtered yet, bc its a different day. Thats the debate. You are focusing on an issue which has no bearing on what we are talking about. But lets take a look for one second. A few things occur as to why you are confused. First, TODAY, Passover from my understanding is on the 15th. So you can keep giving sites all you want it has nothing to do with the time of Jesus. Second, we've already established why its the 15th, for two reasons. Some sites use OUR reckoning of time, midnight. Also, after 70, the days were combined (FOUB ,Passover) which may have placed it on the 15th. When Jesus was eating his last meal, this occurs before 70. Scripture clearly states its the 14th. Last but not least, you're not understanding the site I gave.
The "Passover" is the meal he is refering to. Not the actual day. The entire site I gave is arguing the point if the lamb was killed in the beginning of the 14th or later in the day. He states it was killed later in the day. On the 14th.
In fact, right off away he gives scripture which states:
"They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5
What does it state? The 14th is the Passover. This is exactly as I said. The 14th is Passover. The rest of the site tries to determine when the lambs were slaughtered. At the beginning or near the end.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jazzns, posted 02-12-2010 11:44 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 36 of 107 (546748)
02-13-2010 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by hERICtic
02-13-2010 6:56 AM


Crucified on the 14th in John
Ok I'm awake now. I assume this post is a reply to me and not Peg.
From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover?
I read all the way through John and I agree that in that book Jesus did not eat the Passover meal.
I disagree that Jesus was crucified on Passover day in either book.
See Table for comparison of Mark and John.
Although looking at Mark and John, they both say he was crucified on the Day of Preparation.
Notice Mark 14.
Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and he teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him. But not during the Feast, they said, "or the people may riot."
The story in Mark doesn't really give a timeline after he ate the Passover. We've assumed that all this happened quickly, but did it really? He went to the Mount of Olives before he went to Gethsemane or are those separate narratives. We don't know how much time is between the Mount of Olives and Gethsemane.
If the chief priests and the teachers of the law stayed true to what they supposedly said, then they would have waited until the Feast of Unleavened Bread was finished.
So in the Synoptics Jesus was able to eat the Passover meal, but Jesus probably wasn't arrested until after the FOUB was over and was crucified on a Preparation Day for the Sabbath.
In the book of John it appears Jesus was crucified on a Preparation Day before the Passover.
Personally, I don't think they really know. At least they agreed it was a preparation day.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 6:56 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 6:46 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 37 of 107 (546759)
02-13-2010 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by hERICtic
02-13-2010 6:56 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
Thats not what Jazzsn is saying. He clearly states a few times after Jesus eats his last meal, that the next morning is STILL the eve of Passover. Hes placing the last meal the day BEFORE the Passover, trying to reconcile it with John. Jazzns is arguing opposite of what Peg is.
I will write more later when I have time, but that is NOT what I said. I cannot comprehend why you are time and time again not able to understand.
Did you do the google search? Did you read those links? Do you really think that Jews themselves don't know when to celebrate their own holidays?
Are you STILL insisting that the lamb is slaughtered ON passover? Despite numerous sources that I gave you?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 6:56 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 7:09 PM Jazzns has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 38 of 107 (546770)
02-13-2010 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by purpledawn
02-13-2010 10:34 AM


Re: Crucified on the 14th in John
PD writes:
I read all the way through John and I agree that in that book Jesus did not eat the Passover meal.
I disagree that Jesus was crucified on Passover day in either book.
See Table for comparison of Mark and John.
PD, I have the same site. Havent read it in awhile, have to do some digging to find it again...
But your site states exactly what I have been saying. I tried to cut and paste, but it became a mess. Anyway, look at both charts. Remember, the 14th is Passover. Notice it states in the chart on the 14th, in the synoptics, Jesus ate his last meal. Notice it states the 15th, he is crucified. Therefore, its the day AFTER Passover. Look at John in the charts, it shows on Passover, he is killed, at noon.
PD writes:
Although looking at Mark and John, they both say he was crucified on the Day of Preparation.
That does get confusing bc it means multiple things. It can mean the day before the Passover, the Passover and the day before the Sabbath. Preparation day is just that, a day of preparing.
But in John: 19: 14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
You only have two options. Either its the day before Passover or its the Passover. Either way, this contradicts the synpotics which states he was killed the day AFTER Passover.
John 13: 1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
Now, an argument can be made that "before the feast" can mean right before dinner is eaten, bc verse two states supper is finally over.
I have no problem with this.
But in verse: 27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
28Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
His disciples are unsure of what Jesus is refering to in regards to Judas, they think perhaps he is instructing Judas to buy items for the feast. Now why would they think that if they already ate the feast? They ate a normal supper, the next night was to be the Passover meal.
Also, in John, Jesus is called the Lamb of god. He is symbolically the sacrifical lamb. He is slain at noon, as were the lambs.
Does it make sense to state Jesus was killed the day before Passover or the day of?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2010 10:34 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2010 7:29 PM hERICtic has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 39 of 107 (546772)
02-13-2010 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jazzns
02-13-2010 2:16 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
Jazzns,
Ok....this is getting frustrating. I keep giving you scripture, you keep giving me websites. You fail each and every time to address the actual scripture, instead you run to websites which not only agree with me but futher confuse you.
Using our timeline today...Passover would be on the 15th. Or after 70, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Passover were combined, to start on the 15th. NEITHER has any bearing whatsover on our debate.
Jesus was killed in 33. I even gave you a website, which you claimed backed up your assertions and I showed you in my last post to you, you misunderstood it.
Forget every single website you have. Our friendly, yet frustrating debate is stuck on two key issues.
You keep stating over and over that the Passover is the 15th. Please tell me, according to these verses, when Passover is.
"They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5
"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight (erev) is the LORD’S Passover." Leviticus 23:5
"They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5
Can you also give me scripture which states anywhere in the Bible, that Passover is the 15th.
Mark 14: 12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"
Do you agree or disagree that it states the lamb is to be killed this day?
16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
Do you agree or disagree that they are preparing the Passover meal?
17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."
Do you agree or disagree this is the end of the day or very close to it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Jazzns, posted 02-13-2010 2:16 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Jazzns, posted 02-13-2010 7:22 PM hERICtic has not replied
 Message 64 by Jazzns, posted 02-15-2010 6:03 PM hERICtic has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 40 of 107 (546775)
02-13-2010 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by hERICtic
02-13-2010 7:09 PM


Re: Passover is the 15th
I am sorry for one thing. I DID say that Jesus was crucified on Passover Eve according to John.
I apologize for that. I will have time perhaps tomorrow to get to a more thorough reply. If not then monday at the earliest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 7:09 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 41 of 107 (546776)
02-13-2010 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by hERICtic
02-13-2010 6:46 PM


Re: Crucified on the 14th in John
quote:
But your site states exactly what I have been saying. I tried to cut and paste, but it became a mess. Anyway, look at both charts. Remember, the 14th is Passover. Notice it states in the chart on the 14th, in the synoptics, Jesus ate his last meal. Notice it states the 15th, he is crucified. Therefore, its the day AFTER Passover. Look at John in the charts, it shows on Passover, he is killed, at noon.
The link isn't my argument. It is just support for a portion of it and to show you the difference between the 14th and the 15th. Unfortunately, you still don't understand.
I'm disagreeing with the table concerning Mark. I'm not going to get into the numbers with you, since they are irrelevant and you don't seem to understand. (The chart of Mark shows the passover on the 15th.)
quote:
You only have two options. Either its the day before Passover or its the Passover. Either way, this contradicts the synpotics which states he was killed the day AFTER Passover.
I agreed that in the book of John, it appears Jesus was killed before Passover. So the last supper was not the Passover meal. Yes that contradicts the Synoptics.
It isn't surprising though since the book of John is a later writing and seemed to Hellenize Jesus.
As I said concerning the book of Mark: If the chief priests and the teachers of the law stayed true to what they supposedly said, then they would have waited until the Feast of Unleavened Bread was finished.
We don't really know the timeline in Mark. We've assumed. If they didn't do anything until after the feast, the Day of Preparation may have been for the weekly Sabbath. There could have been more than a week before Jesus was crucified.
quote:
Does it make sense to state Jesus was killed the day before Passover or the day of?
In the Book of John, Jesus was killed the day before the Passover Seder. Supposedly the 14th.
In the Book of Mark, Jesus was killed some time after the Passover Seder if not after the FOUB.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 6:46 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 7:53 PM purpledawn has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 42 of 107 (546779)
02-13-2010 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by purpledawn
02-13-2010 7:29 PM


Re: Crucified on the 14th in John
PD,
You and Jazzns keep stating I do not understand, but neither of you actually is using scripture to back up your arguments.
The site you gave is great, for it breaks down everything. Except for one small problem. The 14th is the Passover.
I keep giving the verses, no one seems to be paying attention to them. LOL!
"They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5
"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight (erev) is the LORD’S Passover." Leviticus 23:5
"They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5
Numbers 28: 16 Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD'S Passover.
Is the Passover on the 14th and 15th?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2010 7:29 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2010 4:54 AM hERICtic has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 43 of 107 (546793)
02-13-2010 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by hERICtic
02-13-2010 6:40 AM


Re: Passover is the 15th
heERICtic writes:
The day of Preparation for the Passover, is the Passover. They prepare the lambs.
the day of preparation is the day before passover. Remember the day begins at sunset...so during the daylight is the preparation, and when the sunsets the new day begins. This new day is the passover.... otherwise, they are makign their preparations during the night time and there would not be enought time to eat the lamb 'between the two evenings'
the two evenings are the time when the sun is sets, and the darkness of night appears. This is a short time and this is the time when the lamb was to be eaten....meaning it had to already be prepared ie slaughtered, skinned, gutted and roasted.
heERICtic writes:
Also, John 18: 28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.
Here, it clearly states they Passover has not been eaten. Obviously then, its the day of the Passover.
Its not all that clear at all. early in the day could mean after the Passover meal had taken place which happened at sundown (14th) the previous night. 12 hours later would be sunrise and it is still the passover (14th) right up until 5.59pm that day.
The meal for the next night (15th) beginning at 6pm would be the Festival of Unfermented Cakes....which is still refered to as 'the passover'. Remember that the passover is a 7 day long festival and each day can be called 'the passover'
heERICtic writes:
Simple question. Jesus is called the lamb of god. Does it make more sense to state he was symbolically the lamb of god the day after the lambs were killed or the day of the lambs being killed?
it certainly makes sense to say he was the lamb on the day of the lambs being killed and there is nothing in the gospels to suggest that he died on the 15th rather then on the 14th.
the 14th ran from 6pm until 5.59 pm so there is a whole 24 hours for him to have eaten the passover with his disciples, been arrested and taken to a mock nighttime trial, sent to Pilate the next morning (still the 14th) impaled around midday of the same day, dieing at 3pm on the same day and being buried before sundown on the same day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 6:40 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by hERICtic, posted 02-14-2010 7:02 AM Peg has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 44 of 107 (546827)
02-14-2010 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by hERICtic
02-13-2010 7:53 PM


Times Change
quote:
You and Jazzns keep stating I do not understand, but neither of you actually is using scripture to back up your arguments.
Because you don't seem to understand that time has passed between the OT and the NT. Traditions evolved.
As I said in Message 32, reckoning the day from sunset to sunset was Babylonian influence.
When the priests were writing about the past, they needed to write as things were, not as they had become.
So in the OT, Passover was probably eaten after dark on the 14th with the 15th starting at sunrise.
In the NT, the Jews reckoned the day from sunset to sunset. The lamb still had to be slaughtered on the 14th and the Passover meal still had to be eaten between the twilights. Also in the first century, the laws about not working on a sabbath were extremely strict. The Rabbis had created a fence around the torah.
A gezeirah is a law instituted by the rabbis to prevent people from accidentally violating a Torah mitzvah. We commonly speak of a gezeirah as a "fence" around the Torah. For example, the Torah commands us not to work on Shabbat, but a gezeirah commands us not to even handle an implement that you would use to perform prohibited work (such as a pencil, money, a hammer), because someone holding the implement might forget that it was Shabbat and perform prohibited work. The word is derived from the root Gimel-Zayin-Reish, meaning to cut off or to separate.
As I showed in Message 22, the lamb is slaughtered at twilight in Exodus, not at noon.
Also remember that in Exodus, the people slaughtered their own lambs. They didn't take them to a temple and have to wait for a priest to make the sacrifice.
In the first century, it would take time for the priests to get all the lambs slaughtered and drained of blood.
Also notice that in Exodus, the Israelites were supposed to pick their lamb on the 10th and take care of it until the 14th. The NT doesn't mention whether Jesus and his disciples did that or not, but in the first century, I seriously doubt if the Jews who weren't farmers had the space for a lamb, let alone the means to feed it. The Jews of the first century were supposedly vegetarian.
The Passover Memorial changed to accommodate the civilization of the time. Jews today don't slaughter their own lambs, or take it to a temple, or eat the whole lamb. They serve a shank bone to represent the lamb. Some aren't even eating a lamb.
Since we can't offer the Paschal sacrifice in the absence of the Holy Temple, we take care to use something that is relatively dissimilar to the actual offering. Accordingly, many communities have the custom to use a roasted chicken neck or the like.
So the specifics surrounding the Passover Seder can and have changed over time. Therefore, we have to look at what was going on in the first century. They may not have had a lamb sacrificed, they may have just bought enough lamb or goat for "sandwiches".
Hillel, the famous rabbi of Jesus' childhood, said that there were three things that were essential to a Passover celebration. These were the Paschal lamb, unleavened bread (matzah) and bitter herbs. He suggested that these were eaten (`bound') together, making a kind of sandwich. It is thought that this might have been the method used to eat the very small piece of Paschal lamb. Each of these things was to remind the descendants of those who came out of Egypt what God had done for Israel. The lamb would remind them that God had passed over their homes; the unleavened bread would remind Israel that God had redeemed them; and the bitter herbs would remind them of the bitterness of slavery under the Egyptians.
The OT scripture tell us how the Passover started, but it doesn't tell us how it was practiced in the first century.
In the first century, when a day was reckoned from sunset to sunset, the lamb was sacrificed on the 14th at the temple. The Passover Seder was eaten after 6pm on the 15th between the twilights.
Show evidence of first century Passover traditions if you disagree with what I've said concerning the passover.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by hERICtic, posted 02-13-2010 7:53 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 02-14-2010 5:59 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 47 by hERICtic, posted 02-14-2010 6:32 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 45 of 107 (546831)
02-14-2010 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
02-14-2010 4:54 AM


Re: Times Change
purpledawn writes:
So in the OT, Passover was probably eaten after dark on the 14th with the 15th starting at sunrise.
except that the jews began their day from sundown to sundown.
IOW, the 15th began at sundown.....otherwise your day is only 12 hours long.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2010 4:54 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2010 6:05 AM Peg has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024