Since it IS Christmas time......

I suspected you might. Sorry to get off on the wrong foot.This is technically a debate site, although not just. Maybe I can explain how the debating works here a little. I only made one 'demand' and I explained that I did because I thought it was funny that you ended a series of unsupported assertions with 'don't rely on heresay', which seemed to undermine your whole post. But I do think there's a difference between yours and his arguments and why yours requires more support.Here's what he wrote: The 'conclusion' of his formal argument is that this god has come a long way. That needs to be supported.His support are the following premises explaining Mitra and Mithra, and Constantine, etc.You then come in and say that his premises are wrong, with specific claims, and that's it. This is where you should support your rebuttles with something, not just heresay. To promote a positive and progressive discussion in an effort to help us all understand things better. Then your reply should have been something along the lines of asking him to support his premises rather than just asserting they were wrong and submitting.But like I said, his point was that the god has come a long way. And he did support that (whether or not his premises are factual). This site might not be for you, then. That's not really the best way for things to work here. These internets are full of people with different thinkings, I doubt anyone thought that his was the only one. You pointing out that someone thinks otherwise doesn't really do anything. Now, had you provided a link to a webpage that supported your claims, then people could actually learn some stuff about the topic. And if it'd been so quick, then thats all the more reason for you to do it. Its not nearly as difficult as your making it out to be.Check it out.You claimed that there's no conection between Mithras and Dec. 25. You could have easily, after making the claim provided something like:

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It is often stated that Mithras was thought to have been born on December 25. But Beck tells us that this is not so. In fact he calls this assertion 'that hoariest of "facts"'. He continues: "In truth, the only evidence for it is the celebration of the birthday of "Invictus" on that date in Calendar of Philocalus. 'Invictus' is of course Sol Invictus, Aurelian's sun god. It does not follow that a different, earlier, and unofficial sun god, Sol Invictus Mithras, was necessarily or even probably, born on that day too."

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sourceI found that pretty quickly. Anyone reading through the thread already has a link to go through for that ascertaining they might be inclined to.My point is that it helps everyone else out and makes the discussions better. I mean, if the site's debates were:A: blah, blah, blahB: Nu-uh!A: Uh-huh!B: No way!Then this place wouldn't be nearly as great as it is. Dontcha think?

[Deleted]Edited by roger pearse, : ClarifyEdited by roger pearse, : No reason given.

The inspired word of God is a jigsaw puzzle? Why? If the OT/NT is truly the inspired word of God, then why the need to hide the true meaning of the word in a maze of parables, poems, quotes, songs and allegory? Shouldn't the word of God be clear, concise, easy to understand and utterly awe inspiring?Why would God (omniscient) allow the word to be confusing if the ultimate outcome would be the fracturing of the church into literally hundreds of different denominations, each with their own interpretation of the texts?The fact that millions of people have spent their entire lives attempting to make sense out of the jigsaw puzzle is pretty good evidence that the books are not the inspired word of God but more likely the work of man.Cheers

Infuriated or not, Jesus is credited with performing miracles, including but not limited to:

Walking on water

Stilling storms

Curing the sick

Feeding 4000 at one time

Cursing a fig tree (nice)

Turning water into wine (very nice)

Providing a bounty of fish, twice

Returning sight to the blind

Cleansing Lepers

Healing paralytics

Healing bleeding women

Healing the deaf

healing the epileptic

Healing of withered hands and dropsy

Exorcisms

Resurrection of the dead (at least 3)

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Despite all of this, the old Jewish leaders refused to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Really? Of course the reality could be either:

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A) Jesus did not exist as a person, much less a Messiah, but is an invention specifically designed to fulfill OT prophecy.
B) Jesus existed as a man, but did not perform any of the miracles attributed to him. More than likely, the miracles attributed to him were the result of a hundred years of urban legend.

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Cheers

it's a jigsaw puzzle to keep those pesky skeptics out, and if it was all easy to understand and simple the ruling elite class called "priests" wouldn't be needed. the bible, according to this sort of person, can never be understood by anyone who doesn't already believe in it and even then can never be understood by a lay person. It has to be somebody with a direct line to god.how can you tell who has a direct line to god? well obviously, those people who DO will be able to tell you they do.you just have to watch out for the false prophets, liars, deceivers, witches and others who would lie to you....easy peasy.far be it for a layman to understand the beauty and truth behind these facts (from KJV):Luke 3:1,23 indicates that when Jesus turned 30 years old, it was the 15th year of Tiberius' reign in Rome, so Jesus was born around 1 BCE (handy, huh?)However, Luke 1:5 places Jesus’ birth in the days of Herod ("the king of Judea", NOT "the tetrarch" who was named in Luke 3), so he was born at the latest in 4 BCE, since that's when Herod died.If you're a True Believer, there is no inconsistency in these two dates, and there's even less problems with not having an actual date for the crucifiction (must be after 32 CE but before 37 CE when Tiberius died, iirc) and no records from the named personas themselves.and let's not get into that whole "christmas isn't christ's birthday" thing - the whole saturnalia story is a lie, and the whole pagan tree-worship thing never happened. and "santa claus" isn't a turkish monk relocated to Italy where he supplanted a fertility goddess who rode a flying horse before being rewritten by a man making a poem into using a sleigh and reindeer before being filled out and bedecked in red by coca cola.bah humbug.

One thing you have to understand - not necessarily agree with mind - is that many "True Christians" are very, very big on the whole "Jewish Roots" deal. If you don't study the torah, they say, you cannot understand the revealed word of god. they usually are the type to call god "yahweh" or "jehovah".mormons and JW's are similar, but supplant the torah with their own revealed truths.strangely enough, I think that the catholics are very anti-jewish-roots in some places and more jewish-roots-with-caution in others (mostly so that you don't think so much of the torah that you convert).similarly, the jews and muslims are also part of the same abrahamic religious sect - in broader terms of course - and have many of the same myths, legends and writings. It's just that the muslims have supplanted the torah once again with the koran and the surahs as the ultimate source of enlightenment.If you take that far enough you get into kaballah and mysticism and numerology and all that.somebody was once telling me that the torah is so perfect a mathematical equation that you can create from it all the other books and things by plotting it out into a grid and...stuff. it got a bit head-scratchy and tin-foil-hatty - maybe somebody else can enlighten?

In Rig Veda, Mitra is not a minor deva, but a MAJOR one. He is Sun god.He is supposed to be unborn and hence his date birth is not mentioned anywhere.Edited by RCS, : No reason given.

Jesus didn't always make his teachings clear to those listening. When his diciples asked him why he spoke this way, his reply was as follows: its not that the text is confusing...its more to do with the fact that some 'christians' adopted philosophies and pagan religous ideas into their teachings...ideas such as the trinity, the holy mother mary of God, pergatory, the afterlife etc etc etc 2 Peter 2:1 However, there also came to be false prophets [in ancient Israel], as there will also be false teachers among you. I wouldnt say that millions of people havnt tried to make sense of the bible at all. I would say that most christians dont actually read the bible at all. They are satisfied with attending their church and being told what to believe. Really its only the church teachers who provide the teachings and everyone else just sits back and listens.the catholic church did not even allow lay people to own a bible up until a few centuries ago...and they tried to prevent it from being translated into the common language so that people couldnt read it.

If you are trying to get into a college that requires a certain level of academic achievment, then you have to meet the standard that they themselves set even if you think that your scores were really good, yes?Can you be sure that our standards of good, are the same as Gods? The OT is all about the Messiah who was to come, while the New Testament is about the evidence that Jesus was the Messiah and how he fulfilled the requirements that the Messiah would fill.The jews are wrong because most of them rejected the one they had been waiting for. But there are many jews today who are leaving Judaism and accepting christianity because they have been willing to look at the evidence. No. He didnt say he came to 'enforce' the law. He said he came to 'fulfill' it.Matthew 5:17 "Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for the smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place."Jesus was saying that the law would not pass away until it was all fulfilled. And because he was able to fulfill it completely, Paul said of mosaic law:
Colossians 2:13-14 "He kindly forgave us all our trespasses 14and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake"not at all. Jesus sacrifice was to enable ALL mankind to come into a relationship with God. Before the Messiah came, only the jewish people could have a relationship with God. But the purpose of the Messiah was so that 'all the nations of earth could be blessed'When the newly formed christian congregation, made up of Jewish people only, came to realise that now the gentiles could also be joined to God, Peter said:
Acts 10.34-35 "God is not partial, but in EVERY NATION the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."The whole point of the Messiah was so that all people could worship God and be saved. This is why christianity is found in all nations on earth whereas Judaism is found among the jewish race only. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

But how do you know for sure that you are right & they(The Jews) were wrong? That the entire New Testament wasn't a hoax?
Anyone can write a story. And anyone can interpret such to say just about anything.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

[Deleted]Edited by roger pearse, : No reason given.

caldron68 writes:

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Infuriated or not, Jesus is credited with performing miracles

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Which is blasphemy and proof that Jesus was not the Messiah.Only god can perform a miracle. That's why Moses was taken aback when god told him what to do when in the presence of Pharaoh. God pointed out that Moses wasn't actually going to be performing the miracle, god would be but through the person of Moses.Moses did not claim to have any supernatural powers. He was just a man. Miracles can only be performed by god.For Jesus to perform a miracle would mean that Jesus was a god, which is blasphemy. There is only one god.

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Despite all of this, the old Jewish leaders refused to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Really?

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Yep. Because he did not fulfill any of the prophecies of the Messiah.The Messiah is a man, not a god, who will be a warlord that unites the land and does not die in the process.Jesus did none of that. Therefore, Jesus cannot possibly be the Messiah.

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Of course the reality could be either

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Well, there's a third option, that follows along the lines of the story of Moses:A tool of some other entity. The Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate the miracles of Moses, but it wasn't because they were on god's side.How ironic it would be for Christians to find they've been the unwitting pawns of Satan. Especially since the book they're idolizing specifically warns them against following people like Jesus.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

prophecy, archeology, secular historyOh, and a little faith

this is not good reasoning considering you acknowledge that Moses was able to perform miracles due to God giving him the powerwhy would you not apply the same reasoning to Jesus? Could God not have given Jesus the power to perform miracles? like the jews, your idea of the messiah is very material and limited.He was to be a messiah for the whole world, not just the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

My point is that anyone can manipulate any written word to say what he wants it to say particularly if the manipulator is charismatic ie: Adolph Hitler.To fully take any thing said or written as truth requires physical evidence not simply hearsay.Edited by bluescat48, : added line

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008