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Author Topic:   Since it IS Christmas time......
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 61 of 126 (540774)
12-28-2009 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Peg
12-28-2009 5:20 PM


Peg in Message 58 writes:
according to Appianos - 39bc-37yrs = 2/1bc
according to Josephus - 40bc-37yrs = 3/2bc
accordint to josephus - 36bc-37yrs = 1bc/1ce
It really is debateable because ancient historians do not always present the same dates as you can see.
Peg in message 60 writes:
yes we do that one, it was Nisan 14 of 33ce before sundown.
you know that the way they piece history together is by the writings of the ancient historians. Some of them used different calanders and used different methods of reckoning time. For instance, Josephus likely used 'regnal' years when mentioning the first year of a rulers coming to power because that is what the Jews were accustomed to. But the Romans did not use regnal years, they would say the rulership of someone began on the first day of his appointment.
For christians, the historical acccounts of Jesus apostles are even more accurate because they wrote with the guidance of Gods holy spirit and therefore when their writings give a different picture, i think it is more trustworthy
Which is why I said that
Me in message 59 writes:
Which brings us back to the original comment, that we don't know when the crucifixion occurred.
With different reconings there is no way to determine when any event actually occurred.
Edited by bluescat48, : missing [/qs]
Edited by bluescat48, : double quote
Edited by bluescat48, : ditto

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Peg, posted 12-28-2009 5:20 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Iblis, posted 12-29-2009 12:43 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 62 of 126 (540776)
12-29-2009 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by bluescat48
12-28-2009 11:20 PM


we don't know when the crucifixion occurred.
It happened the year that there was a 3-hour eclipse of the sun during Passover. That same year, Pontius Pilate caved in to popular pressure, and a Jewish leader protested the currency exchange. In other parts of the world, an Irishman who was given written instructions from his doctor to stay in bed tried to get up and do his job instead, a Greek god died of natural causes, and a Danish king brought world peace.
(No, I did not make any of that up.)
As for the Christmas story, that gets even funnier when you read about when Luke says he was conceived. This was during the time that Lucius Quirinius was governor of Syria, and administrating a head tax on the whole area. That's 6 AD!
My theory is that Baby Jesus, as we know, is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. This is similar to the original Superboy, who had super-strength, super-speed, and super-senses. Superboy used his powers to travel through time to the future, where he joined the Legion of Super Heroes, and to the past, where he fought dinosaurs. His childhood was spread out over about 40 years, during which his parents were shown at different ages and with a wide variety of haircuts. His first case as an adult Superman was to investigate the Kennedy assassination, after which he fought in World War II.
In much the same way, Baby Jesus must have been able to use his omnipresence to break the Time Barrier. Once he was conceived, while still in utero, he was quite the playful little fetus. This is why a pregnant Virgin Mary tends to appear briefly to people throughout spacetime. Towards the end of her pregnancy, when they happened to be at home, Joseph piled them on a donkey and rushed off to try to make his tax deadline.
The mischievous Little Lord dropped them back 13 years though, to the time of Herod the Great. Boy was that donkey freaked out! But Joseph was able to invest his tax shekels, and with compound interest over the next decade or so he could afford a nice shop and some new saws and lathes from the residuals.
After that, they went to Egypt during the time of Moses, so the prophecy could be fulfilled about calling his son out of Egypt. No double fulfillment nonsense for Baby Jesus! He explored Biblical history a bit more, and animated some clay pigeons at a skeet shoot on the Carnival cruise line, among other things. Finally, when he was 12 years old, in the early 50's, he taught in the temple under the name of Josephus, or "little Joseph".
He spent the next 18 years of proper time wandering about through the future, appearing to numerous people, mostly in their hearts. Finally, having carefully investigated all the accounts of his mission and theories about him, he journeyed to the 15th year of Tiberius to be baptized by his cousin John. John was surprised to see him, of course, as it was he who had baptized John when the Baptist was just a wee tyke. But Jesus just winked and said "play along buddy, it's all part of the Big Plan."
He spent the next three years doing and saying much the same thing in various different places, often at the same time. He also did some special preparatory work we will come back to in a moment. Finally he convinced poor Judas to go sell him out, and was nailed to the cross just as predicted. As he died, the spasm opened up a time warp in the sky, witnessed by numerous Roman soldiers who dropped their dice in amazement, back to events of the late fall in 29 AD. And then he was gone (PBUH).
The following day, while everyone was out Jewing, a previous version of him came forward from the past, got his body, carried it back in time many years, recovered the brain, and buried various other pieces raw in a small farm he kept under the name of Immanuel. Then he planted vines and wheat on the fertilized areas and the following harvest he stomped the grapes into new wine, which he left to age for several years. Jumping forward with the bread made from the wheat, he got the wine when it was a good vintage, and set that up for use at the Last Supper. No transubstantiation for Anomaly Jesus, he really meant it!
Then he went forward to that famous Sunday, where he encouraged everyone to carry the word to all nations and did a few more tricks for old time's sake. His brain he wired up with technology from the 31st century, and took it back in time to, you know, 1x10-44 of a second, where it used its mighty omni-powers to whatever, do stuff, its been traveling around interfering with things ever since. It makes its home base in a special Ethiopian replica of the Lost Ark kept in one of the catacombs under the Vatican, which it refers to as "the Tardis". It grows fake bodies for itself, but it tends to vary the appearance of them.
With different reconings there is no way to determine when any event actually occurred.
That's only for dates she doesn't like. They do this same stuff whenever anyone bothers to do the Genesis math and realizes exactly how Methuselah died.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2009 11:20 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 63 of 126 (540777)
12-29-2009 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
12-26-2009 9:34 PM


of course it does.
his death took place in the spring on the Passover according to the Jewish calendar, it was Nisan 14 (also known as the month of Abib) in the year 33 CE.
The bible also says that John the Baptist began his ministry at 30yrs of age in the 15th year of Tiberius Ceasar. 6 mths later also at the age of 30yrs, Jesus began his ministry.
But I'm not seeing this in the chapter of Luke that you cite.
It's a trivial point, but I do like to be accurate.
The most I've gleaned from the Bible is that Jesus was "about thirty" when he started his ministry (Luke 3:23), and that he celebrated at least three Passovers between then and his crucifixion (John 2:13, 6:4 and 11:55).
Perhaps your scriptural knowledge or historical knowledge allows you to fix the date more precisely, but you haven't made yourself clear.
If you know something that I don't, then I should be grateful for any further information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 12-26-2009 9:34 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Peg, posted 12-29-2009 4:40 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 64 of 126 (540788)
12-29-2009 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
12-29-2009 1:09 AM


DrAdequate writes:
The most I've gleaned from the Bible is that Jesus was "about thirty" when he started his ministry (Luke 3:23), and that he celebrated at least three Passovers between then and his crucifixion (John 2:13, 6:4 and 11:55).
Perhaps your scriptural knowledge or historical knowledge allows you to fix the date more precisely, but you haven't made yourself clear.
If you know something that I don't, then I should be grateful for any further information.
Im happy to answer this in detail using the bible chronology.
The evidence is that he was born in the month of Ethanim (mid September- mid October) in the year 2BCE. He was baptized about the same time in 29CE, and he died around 3:00 pm on Friday the 14th in the month of Nisan (March-April) of 33CE.
The way its worked out is by the fact that he was born approximately six months after the birth of his cousin John the Baptizer when Caesar Augustus (31bce-14ce) was emperor and Quirinius was governer and Herod was king of Judea according to the following scriptures: Matt 2:1, 13, 20-22 & Luke 1:24-31,36 & Luke 2:1, 2,7.
Luke 3:1-3, shows that John the Baptizer began his preaching and baptizing in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar.
September 15th of 14CE is when Tiberius was named emperor, so If counted from when he was formally proclaimed emperor, the year would run from September 28CE to September 29CE.
Luke 3.21-23 says that Jesus went to John and was baptized being about thirty years old. So in September 29CE, Jesus was 30 yrs of age, counting back, it puts his birth at September 2bce.
This is in harmony with the mosaic law requirement found at Numbers 4:1-3, 22, 23, 29,30, that any isrealite going into some form of sacred service had to be from thirty years old upward. Thats why its also likely that John was already 30yrs of age when he began his special assignment. John’s birth would have been 30 years before he began his ministry which began in Tiberius’ 15th year, hence somewhere between the latter half of 3BCE and August or September of 2BCE.
We know Jesus ministry lasted three and a half years, becasue the scriptural evidence is that he attended four Passovers as mentioned in John 2:13; 5:1; 6:4; and 13:1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-29-2009 1:09 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-29-2009 12:17 PM Peg has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 65 of 126 (540830)
12-29-2009 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Peg
12-29-2009 4:40 AM


Luke 3.21-23 says that Jesus went to John and was baptized being about thirty years old.
Well there's that "about", you see.
This is in harmony with the mosaic law requirement found at Numbers 4:1-3, 22, 23, 29, 30, that any isrealite going into some form of sacred service had to be from thirty years old upward. Thats why its also likely that John was already 30yrs of age when he began his special assignment.
But this is not necessarily so, is it? I mean, on the one hand, if God had said to John --- "go baptize people", then John wouldn't have said: "No, push off, God, I'm not thirty yet". On the other hand, even if that's the youngest he could have been, there's no reason why God would have started ordering him about bang on his thirtieth birthday --- he waited until Noah was 600 before he started telling him what to do.
We know Jesus ministry lasted three and a half years, becasue the scriptural evidence is that he attended four Passovers as mentioned in John 2:13; 5:1; 6:4; and 13:1
Oops, it seems I missed one.
But this only gives us a lower bound for the length of his ministry.
I think you're being a little more precise tahn can be justified from scripture, but perhaps I'm missing something.
But thanks, your post was most informative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Peg, posted 12-29-2009 4:40 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Iblis, posted 12-29-2009 1:29 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 67 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 6:47 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 66 of 126 (540843)
12-29-2009 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dr Adequate
12-29-2009 12:17 PM


The part you may not be flashing on is the correlation between days of the week and days of the month. The weekend only frames Passover once every few years. So, for Good Friday to actually be a Friday, and smudge the named and implied dates the least, the only option there is is 33 AD.
Sir Isaac Newton actually did the work, but got 34 AD.
Isaac Newton was one of the first scientists to estimate the date of the crucifixion by calculating the relative visibility of the crescent of the new moon between the Hebrew and Julian calendars. Newton suggested the date as Friday, April 23, 34 AD. He based his arguments on several presuppositions, including: "I take it for granted that the passion was on friday the 14th day of the month Nisan".[59] Writing in the Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1991, John Pratt argued that Newton's reasoning was effectively sound, but included a minor error at the end. Pratt suggested the year 33 AD as the accurate answer.[60] Using similar computations, in 1990 astronomer Bradley Schaefer arrived at the same date, Friday, April 3, 33 AD.[61] Thus it can be concluded that Newton's argument favors the April 3, 33 AD date.
This date was further supported in 2003. Using a computer program, astronomers Liviu Mircea and Tiberiu Oproiu again estimated that Jesus died at 3 pm on Friday, April 3, 33 AD, and rose on Sunday, April 5, dates that agree with Schaefer.[62][63] Another computer calculation suggests somewhat different dates.[64]
Using the completely different approach of a lunar eclipse model, Humphreys and Waddington of Oxford University also arrived at the conclusion that Friday, April 3, 33 AD was the date of the Crucifixion.
This is all just a cluster though, it relies on a misunderstanding of the word "Sabbath" which refers not only to Saturdays, but also to feast days like Passover. Plenty of scholars stick the crucifixion on Thursday or even Wednesday, to reconcile some statements in John and get the "three days and three nights" straight. None of them can explain the solar eclipse though. That part had to be a miracle. (Eclipses fall at new moon, Passover at full.)
Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia
A death certificate found imprinted on the Shroud of Turin last month by Vatican scholar Barbara Frale says it was 16 Tiberius, ie 30 AD. I thought someone had proven already that that thing was just Da Vinci taking the piss? Anyway, Victorius of Aquitaine, who produced the first Easter Cycle in 457 AD (a kind of chronicle) went with 28 AD based on Matthew and Josephus, they don't seem to have had the version of Luke we use now handy in the 5th century.
PS: It was in 69 AD that Titus held Jerusalem under siege during Passover time, sending Josephus bar Matthias (Joseph of Arimathea) off to Tekoa to survey it for a potential army camp. On returning, he discovered 3 of his friends on the other side had been crucified as part of a Roman exemplum; he received an unprecedented permission from Titus to take them down, but only one of them was able to be revived.
Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, as he claimed there is "no merit in vanquishing people forsaken by their own God".
Titus - Wikipedia
Edited by Iblis, : facts and links

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-29-2009 12:17 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 67 of 126 (540931)
12-30-2009 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dr Adequate
12-29-2009 12:17 PM


there is one more way of determining the age of Jesus at his birth and death.
Its the 70 weeks prophecy given by the prophet Daniel.
Daniel pinpoints the exact timing of the messiahs birth and death in this prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-29-2009 12:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2009 6:54 AM Peg has replied
 Message 78 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-30-2009 9:02 AM Peg has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 68 of 126 (540933)
12-30-2009 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Peg
12-30-2009 6:47 AM


Daniel pinpoints the exact timing of the messiahs birth and death in this prophecy.
Ok, so pinpoint it then. I read the "prophecy" and it is garbage. What say you?

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 6:47 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 7:05 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 69 of 126 (540937)
12-30-2009 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by hooah212002
12-30-2009 6:54 AM


hooah212002 writes:
Ok, so pinpoint it then. I read the "prophecy" and it is garbage. What say you?
if you've already judged it as garbage, why would you want to hear it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2009 6:54 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2009 7:08 AM Peg has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 70 of 126 (540938)
12-30-2009 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Peg
12-30-2009 7:05 AM


You said it pinpoints the EXACT date. I read it, and it does NOT give an exact date. I don't want your interpretation of the your particular reading of it, I want you to tell me the date. The exact date of both birth and death, because you said this:
Peg writes:
Daniel pinpoints the exact timing of the messiahs birth and death in this prophecy.
To most of us, exact timing means at least to the day, yes? So you have this information? The exact day and where you pulled it from this prophecy.
An exact number doesn't come from speaking in parables.
Edited by hooah212002, : quote tags

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 7:05 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 7:28 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 71 of 126 (540939)
12-30-2009 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by hooah212002
12-30-2009 7:08 AM


hooah212002 writes:
You said it pinpoints the EXACT date. I read it, and it does NOT give an exact date. I don't want your interpretation of the your particular reading of it, I want you to tell me the date.
Ok,
from the month of Nisan (mid march- mid April) in 455 bce there would be 483 years until the Messiah appeared.
455 bce - 483yrs = 29ce
Jesus began his ministry in sept/oct of 29ce, exactly 6 months after John the baptizer began announcing his arrival (mid march - mid april)
Because Jesus was 30yrs old in sept/oct of 29ce, he was born in sept/oct of 2bce. 29ce - 30yrs = 2bce
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2009 7:08 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2009 7:39 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 73 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2009 7:45 AM Peg has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 72 of 126 (540940)
12-30-2009 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Peg
12-30-2009 7:28 AM


Call me nitpicky, but that's not very exact. I'll have to research on the accuracy of it and get back.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 7:28 AM Peg has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 73 of 126 (540941)
12-30-2009 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Peg
12-30-2009 7:28 AM


At first glance, I see it is assumed the "7's" are periods of 7 years, yes? So your exactness.....is based on assumption?

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 7:28 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 7:53 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 74 of 126 (540942)
12-30-2009 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by hooah212002
12-30-2009 7:45 AM


hooah212002 writes:
At first glance, I see it is assumed the "7's" are periods of 7 years, yes? So your exactness.....is based on assumption?
that is by jewish reckoning. Week of years is mentioned in the Jewish Mishnah in Baba Metzia 9, and in Sanhedrin 5
Most Bible scholars also agree that the weeks are weeks of years. Some translations even read seventy weeks of years.
There are two reasons for this, 1 is that there is a bible rule that a day is a year, and 2ndly, the rebuilding of a destroyed city would take many more then 70 days no matter how many people you had working on the project.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2009 7:45 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by hooah212002, posted 12-30-2009 8:11 AM Peg has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 75 of 126 (540945)
12-30-2009 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Peg
12-30-2009 7:53 AM


I have never heard of a "bible rule" that "1 day=1 year". I guess that should clear up any misunderstanding about Genesis then, yes? It must be a rule that it is not 6 literal 24 hour days, but 6 years. Glad that's cleared up. Now you have to convince alot of other people, I'm afraid. However, the ages given for people are in.....years. Does that meant "1 year=100 years"? or 1000? Was Adam really like 8000 years old instead of 800?
I also find it funny that you would reference the torah as a basis for your findings. So many other christians feel a disconnect between themselves and jews, mainly the ones I've encountered here. I see the connection, but do christians?
Forgive me if I am not a "biblical scholar", but christianity shouldn't require years of study just to understand your book. One shouldn't have to reference texts of another religion to decipher your book. One shouldn't have to jump back and forth to understand what this writer meant, or what that writer was trying to convey. Again, apologies for my not having studied the bible as much as many others have in order to elicit fantastic, elaborate responses on the matter.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 7:53 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Peg, posted 12-30-2009 8:43 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
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