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Author Topic:   Since it IS Christmas time......
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 46 of 126 (540616)
12-26-2009 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
12-26-2009 8:09 PM


Re: The Public Mandate
long as the elected leadership follows the mandates of their constituency regarding Christmas symbols on public property
Cause why should a little thing like the constitution matter?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 47 of 126 (540638)
12-27-2009 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Iblis
12-26-2009 8:55 PM


Re: shennanigans?
Hi, Iblis.
Iblis writes:
But somehow I've missed the persecution of secularity. What would that constitute, anyway? No gifts or something?
As a young kid, I once tried to secularize the holiday by not observing the Christmas tradition of getting presents for my siblings. I was thoroughly persecuted by my parents into conforming to the Christmas tradition.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 48 of 126 (540663)
12-27-2009 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Iblis
12-26-2009 8:55 PM


Re: shennanigans?
Hi Iblis,
I believe Hoah is talking about stuff like this;
A conservative activist and Illinois comptroller candidate was escorted from the Illinois State Capitol building Wednesday when he tried to remove a sign put up by an atheist group.
William J. Kelly announced Tuesday that he planned to take down the sign put up by the Freedom from Religion Foundation, and on Wednesday, he tried to make good on his plan.
CBS Chicago - Breaking News, First Alert Weather, Exclusive Investigations & Community Journalism
To be clear, the authorities did the right thing and escorted him off the premises.
To me it seems obvious that either all groups are allowed to put up displays on government property or none are. Anything else displays the kind of undue favouritism that the Establishment Clause was created to prevent. Nonetheless, some Americans still seem confused by their own constitution, so we end up with stories like this every Christmas.
In other news, it seems that some Christian s can't even tolerate other Christians making a public statement.
An unholy row has broken out in New Zealand over a church billboard aimed at "challenging stereotypes" about the birth of Jesus Christ. A dejected-looking Joseph lies in bed next to Mary under the caption, "Poor Joseph. God was a hard act to follow".
St Matthew-in-the-City Church in Auckland, which erected the billboard, said it had intended to provoke debate. But the Catholic Church, among others, has condemned it as "inappropriate" and "disrespectful".
Within hours of its unveiling, the billboard had been defaced with brown paint.
BBC News - Unholy row over New Zealand Mary and Joseph billboard
Mutate and Survive

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Iblis, posted 12-26-2009 8:55 PM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 126 (540664)
12-27-2009 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
12-26-2009 9:34 PM


of course it does.
his death took place in the spring on the Passover according to the Jewish calendar, it was Nisan 14 (also known as the month of Abib) in the year 33 CE.
The bible also says that John the Baptist began his ministry at 30yrs of age in the 15th year of Tiberius Ceasar. 6 mths later also at the age of 30yrs, Jesus began his ministry.
I suppose you're right. I stand corrected. Seems we can actually narrow it down to the 15th of Nisan and even up to the hour.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 12-26-2009 9:34 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by bluescat48, posted 12-27-2009 1:39 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 50 of 126 (540669)
12-27-2009 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Granny Magda
12-27-2009 10:14 AM


YAY
Thank you very much! Yeah, Christian bashing other Christians never suprises me. At one church I attended I developed the opinion that the only reason a lot of Baptists weren't out killing Methodists was that the different-colored fellow Baptists weren't all dead yet.
But I wasn't aware of the shift to inclusive displays. We've come a long way baby!
Haupt said in addition to the sign, the Nativity Scene and the Christmas tree, there is also a Soldiers' Angels wreath, and a tabletop display from the American Civil Liberties Union that says the group "defends freedom of religion." A Hanukkah menorah had also been on display until the Jewish Festival of Lights ended on Saturday.
For the second year in a row, the Capitol also has an aluminum Festivus pole commemorating the fictional holiday created in "Seinfeld."
I think it's interesting which new legal paradigm is already being subverted in this argument, we can expect a lot more of this stuff.
But Kelly called the sign "hate speech," and said he does not believe it is appropriate for a sign that "mocks" religion to be placed next to a Christmas tree and also near a nativity scene.
"I don't think the State of Illinois has any business denigrating or mocking any religion," Kelly said, "and I think that's what the verbiage on the sign was doing."
The sign reads: "At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
CBS Chicago - Breaking News, First Alert Weather, Exclusive Investigations & Community Journalism

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 51 of 126 (540680)
12-27-2009 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Hyroglyphx
12-27-2009 10:35 AM


Peg writes:
of course it does.
his death took place in the spring on the Passover according to the Jewish calendar, it was Nisan 14 (also known as the month of Abib) in the year 33 CE.
The bible also says that John the Baptist began his ministry at 30yrs of age in the 15th year of Tiberius Ceasar. 6 mths later also at the age of 30yrs, Jesus began his ministry.
I suppose you're right. I stand corrected. Seems we can actually narrow it down to the 15th of Nisan and even up to the hour.
In that case then Matthew was wrong about the Magi visiting Hereos the Great.
Wiki writes:
Herod (Hebrew: הוֹרְדוֹס‎, Hordos, Greek: Ἡρῴδης, Hērōdēs), also known as Herod I or Herod the Great (born 74 BC, died 4 BC in Jericho, was a Roman client king of Israel.
Herod allegely died while Jesus was in Egypt, sent there to avold herod's decree that all boy 2 years of age and under were to be killed. This would make Jesus's birth no earlier that at leleast 4 BCE. add 30 5o that and you are at 26 CE.
Wiki writes:
Tiberius Julius Caesar Augustus, born Tiberius Claudius Nero (November 16, 42 BC — March 16, AD 37), was the second Roman Emperor, from the death of Octavian Augustus in AD 14 until his own death in 37
the 15th year of Tiberias would be 29 CE. So if Jesus was 30 in the 15th year of Tiberias, he had to be born after the death of Herod so then Matthew is wrong or if Matthew was right then Luke is wrong.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-27-2009 10:35 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-27-2009 6:03 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 126 (540688)
12-27-2009 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by bluescat48
12-27-2009 1:39 PM


the 15th year of Tiberias would be 29 CE. So if Jesus was 30 in the 15th year of Tiberias, he had to be born after the death of Herod so then Matthew is wrong or if Matthew was right then Luke is wrong.
So you are saying there is a disparity between Luke and Matthew's gospel? I'm not seeing it. What exactly am I looking for?

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by bluescat48, posted 12-27-2009 1:39 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by bluescat48, posted 12-27-2009 7:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 55 by Peg, posted 12-27-2009 9:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 53 of 126 (540690)
12-27-2009 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Hyroglyphx
12-27-2009 6:03 PM


Herod the great died in 4BCE, thus the latest that Christ could have been born was 4BCE. If he was 30 in the 15th year of Tiberius, 29 CE(Tiberius's reign started in 14 CE), the Christ could not have been 30 at that time, at the minimum 33 years.
If Luke is right about the 15th year of Tiberius, then there is no way that the Magi could have seen Herod at the time of Christ's infancy since if Luke is right than Christ could not have been born before 1BCE in which case Herod was already dead for about 3 years. No matter how one slices it, one of them, Luke or Matthew, had to have gotten it wrong.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-27-2009 6:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 54 of 126 (540701)
12-27-2009 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by bluescat48
12-27-2009 7:13 PM


bluescat writes:
Herod the great died in 4BCE, thus the latest that Christ could have been born was 4BCE. If he was 30 in the 15th year of Tiberius, 29 CE(Tiberius's reign started in 14 CE), the Christ could not have been 30 at that time, at the minimum 33 years.
Herods death is debatable. The 4bce date is based on Josephus account that herod died during an eclips around the time of passover. There was an eclips on March 11 4bce but it was only a partial eclips. There was a total eclipse in 1bce on January 8th, 18 days before Shebat 2, which corresponds to the traditional day of Herod’s death.
At age 30, in 29ce, Jesus bagan his ministry and in 33ce at the passover he was put to death. This means jesus was born in 2bce...before herods death if he died in 2 or 1bce.
The fact that Jesus was still an infant when his parents returned to their homeland after fleeing to Egypt shows that Herod could very well have died in 1bce.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Iblis, posted 12-27-2009 10:05 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 55 of 126 (540703)
12-27-2009 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Hyroglyphx
12-27-2009 6:03 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:
So you are saying there is a disparity between Luke and Matthew's gospel? I'm not seeing it. What exactly am I looking for?
bluescat is basing his calculation on a 4bce date for herods death.
If herod did die in 4bce, then bluescat is right, but the evidence for 4bce is scanty and there is more evidence to take into consideration before holding to the 4bce date.
there is the traditional date of January 8 of 1bce.
There is also the fact that Josephus mentions the age of Herod at the time of his death. He says he was about 70 years old. In 47bce he was 25yrs old which is when he became the governer of Galilee. So this line of calculation puts Herod’s death in 2 or 1bce.
Another evidence for 2-1bce is the fact that Herod took the city of Jerusalem 36bce and Josephus reports that he died 34 years after he took Jerusalem.
Josephus also reports that Herod died 37 years from the time that he was appointed king by the Romans which is 40/39bce.
Now i havnt even used the bible chrononolgy of the gospel accounts yet, but this secular evidence is far greater then the 4bce date for herods death which is based on an eclipse of the moon...of which there are many.
What is more reasonable to you?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 56 of 126 (540707)
12-27-2009 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Peg
12-27-2009 8:51 PM


Herods death is debatable.
Not really.
Antiquities 17:8.1 writes:
AND now Herod altered his testament upon the alteration of his mind; for he appointed Antipas, to whom he had before left the kingdom, to be tetrarch of Galilee and Perea, and granted the kingdom to Archclaus. He also gave Gaulonitis, and Trachonitis, and Paneas to Philip, who was his son, but own brother to Archclaus by the name of a tetrarchy; and bequeathed Jarnnia, and Ashdod, and Phasaelis to Salome his sister, with five hundred thousand [drachmae] of silver that was coined. He also made provision for all the rest of his kindred, by giving them sums of money and annual revenues, and so left them all in a wealthy condition. He bequeathed also to Caesar ten millions [of drachmae] of coined money, besides both vessels of gold and silver, and garments exceeding costly, to Julia, Caesar's wife; and to certain others, five millions. When he had done these things, he died, the fifth day after he had caused Antipater to be slain; having reigned, since he had procured Antigonus to be slain, thirty-four years; but since he had been declared king by the Romans, thirty-seven. A man he was of great barbarity towards all men equally, and a slave to his passion; but above the consideration of what was right; yet was he favored by fortune as much as any man ever was, for from a private man he became a king; and though he were encompassed with ten thousand dangers, he got clear of them all, and continued his life till a very old age.
To date the year, we look at the beginning of his reign
Antiquities 14:13.1-2 writes:
WHEN after this Antony came into Syria, Cleopatra met him in Cilicia, and brought him to fall in love with her. And there came now also a hundred of the most potent of the Jews to accuse Herod and those about him, and set the men of the greatest eloquence among them to speak. But Messala contradicted them, on behalf of the young men, and all this in the presence of Hyrcanus, who was Herod's father-in-law already. When Antony had heard both sides at Daphne, he asked Hyrcanus who they were that governed the nation best. He replied, Herod and his friends. Hereupon Antony, by reason of the old hospitable friendship he had made with his father [Antipater], at that time when he was with Gabinius, he made both Herod and Phasaelus tetrarchs, and committed the public affairs of the Jews to them, and wrote letters to that purpose. He also bound fifteen of their adversaries, and was going to kill them, but that Herod obtained their pardon.
Yet did not these men continue quiet when they were come back, but a thousand of the Jews came to Tyre to meet him there, whither the report was that he would come. But Antony was corrupted by the money which Herod and his brother had given him; and so he gave order to the governor of the place to punish the Jewish ambassadors, who were for making innovations, and to settle the government upon Herod; but Herod went out hastily to them, and Hyrcanus was with him, (for they stood upon the shore before the city,) and he charged them to go their ways, because great mischief would befall them if they went on with their accusation. But they did not acquiesce; whereupon the Romans ran upon them with their daggers, and slew some, and wounded more of them, and the rest fled away and went home, and lay still in great consternation. And when the people made a clamor against Herod, Antony was so provoked at it, that he slew the prisoners.
Antony went to Asia in early 42 BC, and left the following year.
We can check the date though, using the event about 3 years later.
Antiquities 14.13.3 writes:
Now, in the second year, Pacorus, the king of Parthia's son, and Barzapharnes, a commander of the Parthians, possessed themselves of Syria. Ptolemy, the son of Menneus, also was now dead, and Lysanias his son took his government, and made a league of friendship with Antigonus, the son of Aristobulus; and in order to obtain it, made use of that commander, who had great interest in him. Now Antigonus had promised to give the Parthians a thousand talents, and five hundred women, upon condition they would take the government away from Hyrcanus, and bestow it upon him, and withal kill Herod. And although he did not give them what he had promised, yet did the Parthians make an expedition into Judea on that account, and carried Antigonus with them.
This is the beginning of the Antigonus revolt. Herod goes to Rome, to get approval from the Senate to kill the usurper and have his kingdom restored to him.
14:14.5-6 writes:
But when the senate was dissolved, Antony and Caesar went out of the senate house with Herod between them, and with the consuls and other magistrates before them, in order to offer sacrifices, and to lay up their decrees in the capitol. Antony also feasted Herod the first day of his reign. And thus did this man receive the kingdom, having obtained it on the hundred and eighty-fourth olympiad, when Caius Domitius Calvinus was consul the second time, and Caius Asinius Pollio [the first time].
All this while Antigonus besieged those that were in Masada, who had plenty of all other necessaries, but were only in want of water insomuch that on this occasion Joseph, Herod's brother, was contriving to run away from it, with two hundred of his dependents, to the Arabians
The date specified by consulate and olympiad there is 40-39 BC. Herod heads back home and kills Antigonus soon after he gets there.
Antiquities 14:16.4 writes:
This destruction befell the city of Jerusalem when Marcus Agrippa and Caninius Gallus were consuls of Rome on the hundred eighty and fifth olympiad, on the third month, on the solemnity of the fast, as if a periodical revolution of calamities had returned since that which befell the Jews under Pompey; for the Jews were taken by him on the same day, and this was after twenty-seven years' time. So when Sosius had dedicated a crown of gold to God, he marched away from Jerusalem, and carried Antigonus with him in bonds to Antony; but Herod was afraid lest Antigonus should be kept in prison [only] by Antony, and that when he was carried to Rome by him, he might get his cause to be heard by the senate, and might demonstrate, as he was himself of the royal blood, and Herod but a private man, that therefore it belonged to his sons however to have the kingdom, on account of the family they were of, in case he had himself offended the Romans by what he had done. Out of Herod's fear of this it was that he, by giving Antony a great deal of money, endeavored to persuade him to have Antigonus slain, which if it were once done, he should be free from that fear.
The date specified, by consulate and olympiad and month, is 38 BC. Do the math, 41-37=4, 38-34=4.
The point where we start to care about the eclipse story is to verify the month and date.
Antiquities 17:6.4-5 writes:
But Herod deprived this Matthias of the high priesthood, and burnt the other Matthias, who had raised the sedition, with his companions, alive. And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon.
But now Herod's distemper greatly increased upon him after a severe manner, and this by God's judgment upon him for his sins; for a fire glowed in him slowly, which did not so much appear to the touch outwardly, as it augmented his pains inwardly; for it brought upon him a vehement appetite to eating, which he could not avoid to supply with one sort of food or other.
The lunar eclipse in 4 BC is about a month before Passover.
Antiquities 17:9.3 writes:
Now, upon the approach of that feast of unleavened bread, which the law of their fathers had appointed for the Jews at this time, which feast is called the Passover and is a memorial of their deliverance out of Egypt, when they offer sacrifices with great alacrity; and when they are required to slay more sacrifices in number than at any other festival; and when an innumerable multitude came thither out of the country, nay, from beyond its limits also, in order to worship God, the seditious lamented Judas and Matthias, those teachers of the laws, and kept together in the temple, and had plenty of food, because these seditious persons were not ashamed to beg it. And as Archelaus was afraid lest some terrible thing should spring up by means of these men's madness, he sent a regiment of armed men, and with them a captain of a thousand, to suppress the violent efforts of the seditious before the whole multitude should be infected with the like madness; and gave them this charge, that if they found any much more openly seditious than others, and more busy in tumultuous practices, they should bring them to him.
QED
Edited by Iblis, : go ahead, ask me about that "traditional date" -- you will have to admit the source though, I won't be the one to bring that into the argument

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Peg, posted 12-27-2009 8:51 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 57 of 126 (540711)
12-27-2009 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Peg
12-27-2009 9:08 PM


One other point is that Jesus was in Egypt for 3 years and that Herod wanted all boys up to the age of 2 killed which could add as much as 5 years to the birth. this, even if Herod died in 1BCE could still place it anywhere up to 6BCE for the Nativity. There were also 2 total lunar eclipses in 5BCE which further complicates the picture.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Peg, posted 12-27-2009 9:08 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 58 of 126 (540719)
12-28-2009 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Iblis
12-27-2009 10:05 PM


Iblis writes:
To date the year, we look at the beginning of his reign
thats right
and the Roman Senate offically made him king in 39bc according to Appianos and 40bc according to Josephus
Josephus also says that this occurred 27 years after the capture of the city by Pompey which was in 63bc...this would make the year he was officially made king as 36bc. (63-27=36)
If Herod died 37 years from the time that he was appointed
according to Appianos - 39bc-37yrs = 2/1bc
according to Josephus - 40bc-37yrs = 3/2bc
accordint to josephus - 36bc-37yrs = 1bc/1ce
It really is debateable because ancient historians do not always present the same dates as you can see.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2009 12:11 PM Peg has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 59 of 126 (540749)
12-28-2009 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Peg
12-28-2009 5:03 AM


It really is debateable because ancient historians do not always present the same dates as you can see.
Which brings us back to the original comment, that we don't know when the crucifixion occurred.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Peg, posted 12-28-2009 5:03 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Peg, posted 12-28-2009 5:20 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 60 of 126 (540758)
12-28-2009 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by bluescat48
12-28-2009 12:11 PM


bluescat writes:
Which brings us back to the original comment, that we don't know when the crucifixion occurred.
yes we do that one, it was Nisan 14 of 33ce before sundown.
you know that the way they piece history together is by the writings of the ancient historians. Some of them used different calanders and used different methods of reckoning time. For instance, Josephus likely used 'regnal' years when mentioning the first year of a rulers coming to power because that is what the Jews were accustomed to. But the Romans did not use regnal years, they would say the rulership of someone began on the first day of his appointment.
For christians, the historical acccounts of Jesus apostles are even more accurate because they wrote with the guidance of Gods holy spirit and therefore when their writings give a different picture, i think it is more trustworthy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2009 12:11 PM bluescat48 has replied

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