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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
Peg
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 406 of 427 (547034)
02-15-2010 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2010 7:34 PM


Re: The Throne
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Even if 1 day=1 year where do you get 2,520 years? And how do you know when the "women fled to the desert"??
i deliberately didnt put all the details in as i didnt want to complicate my post too much because it takes in the combined prophecies of Revelation and Daniel.... i will try to keep it as simple as possible.
Rev 12:6 and 14 show that 1,260 days are equivilent to a time and times and half a time, IOW 1 + 2 + 1/2 = 31/2 times.
To find out the lenght of a 'time' you divide 1260 into 3.5 you get 360 which is equivilent to 12 lunar months. So a 'time' = 360
Now Seven times (according to Daniel is the length of 'times' when Gods rulership will be absent Dan4:15-17) 7x360= 2,520 days... and once you apply the prophetic years rule found at Ezekeil 4:6 & Numbers 14:34 it becomes 2,520 Years.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
And how do you know when the "women fled to the desert"??
its irrelevant in terms of the gentile times because they began long before the 'woman gave birth to the son' This son is Jesus and the woman is Gods heavenly kingdom.
and im not using WW1 as the basis for the prophecy, im using prophetic dates as the basis for the prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2010 7:34 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by bluescat48, posted 02-16-2010 12:18 AM Peg has replied
 Message 412 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-16-2010 11:34 AM Peg has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 3681 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 407 of 427 (547054)
02-16-2010 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Peg
02-15-2010 10:07 PM


Re: The Throne
To find out the lenght of a 'time' you divide 1260 into 3.5 you get 360 which is equivilent to 12 lunar months. So a 'time' = 360
12 lunar months is ~354days not 360. A lunar month is ~29days.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 10:07 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Peg, posted 02-16-2010 5:39 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 408 of 427 (547086)
02-16-2010 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by bluescat48
02-16-2010 12:18 AM


Re: The Throne
the jews counted the lunar month as 30 days as is seen in genesis 7:11,24; 8:3,4 where a period of 5 months is shown to equal 150 days.
We may not count it that way, but that is how the ancient hebrews did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by bluescat48, posted 02-16-2010 12:18 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by bluescat48, posted 02-16-2010 7:04 AM Peg has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 3681 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 409 of 427 (547092)
02-16-2010 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Peg
02-16-2010 5:39 AM


Re: The Throne
I don't know where you get your information but the Hebrew months were alternating 30 & 29 day months with an extra month added about every 3 years to get the moon & sun in sync. As for Genesis, the Hebrew calendar didn't exist at the time of Genesis, it was formed after the Exodus.
Edited by bluescat48, : clarity

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Peg, posted 02-16-2010 5:39 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 12:48 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3386 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 410 of 427 (547101)
02-16-2010 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2010 7:34 PM


Re: The Throne
You may not be aware of what you are stepping into here, man. She's perfectly willing to believe nonsense.
Eschatology of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia
Witnesses base their beliefs about the significance of 1914 on the Watch Tower Society's interpretation of biblical chronology.[20][21] They believe this to be reinforced by world events since 1914, which they see as fulfillment of the "sign" of Christ's presence for all to see. [22][23] An example of this sign is said to be the world wars which they say fulfills Christ's statement in answer to a request for a sign. [24] They believe that their preaching is part of that sign. To support this they point to Matthew 24:14, which says "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come." (MKJV) [25][26][27]
Their interpretation of Bible chronology is hinged on their assertion that the Babylonian captivity and destruction of Jerusalem occurred in 607 BCE.[28] Secular historians date the event of Jerualem's destruction to within a year of 587 BC. The Witnesses alternative chronology produces a 20-year gap somewhere between the reigns of Neo-Babylonian Kings Amel-Marduk (rule ended 560BC) and Nabonidus (rule began 555BC) in addition to the intervening reigns of Neriglissar and Labashi-Marduk, despite the availability of contiguous cuneiform records.[29]
And not just nonsense, but nonsense with a long track record of being wrong.
Barbour's basic eschatology was retained by Russell after they parted company, with some minor refinements. Basing his interpretations on a concept of parallel "dispensations," Russell taught that while Jesus was invisibly present here on earth he was also made its King in 1878. He claimed God had rejected the "nominal Church" (considered to be "Babylon the Great") in 1878.[70] Russell also taught that in 1878 Christ resurrected all the "dead in Christ" as spirit beings to be with him on earth awaiting a future glorification to heaven. (As each of the remainder of the 144,000 would die after 1878, Christ would resurrect them as spirit beings to join those already resurrected.) Together with Christ on earth, these invisible resurrected spirit beings were said to be engaged in directing a harvest work (running from 1874-1914) gathering the remainder of those with the heavenly calling.[71] Russell later moderated his view about the significance of 1881, stating that the "door" for the gathering of the Bride of Christ "stands ajar."[72]
He wrote that the culmination of Armageddon would occur in 1914, preceded by the gathering of all the saints (both resurrected and living) to heaven. Based on measurements from the Great Pyramid of Gizeh, this "passing beyond the vail" or rapture was expected "before the close of A.D. 1910."[73][74] Russell enumerated seven expectations for 1914 in The Time is at Hand, providing biblical evidence that the "lease of dominion" over earth by Gentiles would end in 1914, "and that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. He wrote that:
(1) In 1914 the Kingdom of God would obtain full, universal control over earth "on the ruins of present institutions";
(2) Christ would then be present as earth’s new Ruler;
(3) Some time before the end of 1914 the last member of the "royal priesthood, the body of Christ" would be glorified with Christ;
(4) Fom 1914 Jerusalem would no longer "be trodden down by the Gentiles";
(5) From that date, "Israel’s blindness will begin to be turned away";
(6) In 1914 the great "time of trouble" would reach its culmination in a worldwide reign of anarchy;
(7) Before that date God’s Kingdom would "smite and crush the Gentile image - and fully consume the power of these kings".[75]
At first the hopes for 1914 were stretched to "near the end of A.D. 1915."[76] A few months before his death in October 1916, Russell wrote: "We believe that the dates have proven to be quite right. We believe that Gentile Times have ended...The Lord did not say that the Church would all be glorified by 1914. We merely inferred it, and, evidently, erred."[77] He expected the war in Europe to be the beginning of Armageddon[78] and the destruction of the "nominal Church" to take place in April 1918.[79]
And not just wrong, but continually adjustable and retconnable ever since.
After the passing of 1975, the Watch Tower Society continued to emphasize the teaching that God would execute his judgment on humankind before the generation of people who had witnessed the events of 1914 had all died.[157][158][159][160] This teaching was based on an interpretation of Matthew 24:34 ("Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur"), with the term "a generation" said to refer "beyond question" to a generation living in a given period.[161]
The term had been used with regard to the nearness of Armageddon from the 1940s, when the view was that "a generation" covered a period of about 30 to 40 years.[162] As the 40-year deadline passed without Armageddon occurring, the definition of "a generation" underwent a series of changes: in 1952 it was said for the first time to mean an entire lifetime, possibly 80 years or more;[162][163] in 1968 it was applied to those who had been at least 15 years old in 1914 and therefore "old enough to witness with understanding what took place when the 'last days' began" (italics theirs);[164] in 1980 the starting date for that "generation" was brought into the 20th century when the term was applied to those who had been born in 1904 and therefore aged 10 and able simply "to observe" when World War I had begun. The Watchtower commented: "The fact that their number is dwindling is one more indication that the conclusion of the system of things is moving fast toward its end."[162][165]
From 1982 to 1995 the inside cover of every Awake! magazine included in its statement of purpose a reference to the generation of 1914 belief, acknowledging the Creator’s promise ... of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away". In 1985 Witnesses were reminded: "The 1914 generation is well into the evening of its existence, thus allowing only little time for this prophecy yet to be fulfilled."[166] .
Even as they taught it, however, members of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses debated replacing the doctrine with a markedly different interpretation. In 1980 Albert Schroeder, Karl Klein and Grant Suiter proposed moving the beginning of the "generation" to the year 1957, to coincide with the year Sputnik was launched. The proposal was rejected by the rest of the Governing Body.[167]
Despite its earlier description as being "beyond question", the "generation of 1914" teaching was discarded in 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2010 7:34 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 991 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 411 of 427 (547104)
02-16-2010 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by Peg
02-15-2010 6:21 PM


Re: The Throne
Well its not that the kingdom was 'established' at that time, but that the Kingdom went into 'action' at that time and began it reign. Until this time, the kingdom was only active upon the christian congregations.
I know of JWs but I am not real familiar with your specific teachings. Im less interested in the prophecies and numbers thingy you have described, than I am some theological, Biblical and moral implication involved in the above statement.
What does "Went into action at that time"(1914) "began its reign"
and "the kingdom was only active upon the christian congregations" Mean?
Without all the involved numbers thingy, (while I am interested in that, but not at present) simply explain from your perspective the philosophical and Biblical premises of these phrases.
So Jerusalem represented Gods rulership in the earth. This gives us a clue as to what the gentile times would mean....they would mean that for an appointed time, Gods rulership on earth would not be represented.
but Jesus words show us that those 'appointed times' would come to their end and thus Gods rulership would once again sprout.
using the Old and NT as a guide, why would we assume there was a time Gods represenative rule was not in place, considering the Church was his body and Christ was its head since that time period
Even if we are talking about a time from captivity to NT times wouldnt the Law of Moses still represent Gods rule, (even if someone was on the actual throne or not, until it was fulfilled in Christ, then from christ forward to the present it is represented by the NT, his headship in the Church, or am I missing something?
7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth...12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.
So you see these events happening after the time of Christ, not eons before and specifically around the early part of the 1900s, correct? A Biblical numerology of sorts
So the conclusion from these calculations in your estimation is that the second coming is at hand, near, sooner than we might expect, or distant. Or do they have application now? Not looking for a date or trying to be silly, just your opinion
just some quick answers if you will, then i will let you continue with these other fellas.
devils Advocate writes to Peg
And I see absolutely no dates or correlation of any kind with 2520 years in Daniel 4. So please elaborate. Seems to me you are just pulling dates out of your ass.
Watch out for that Devils Advocate though, he can be a grippy Gus. In a former life here at EVC, I use to instruct him on how to argue rationally without emotion influencing his statements. hes getting alittle better
Once he finally learns the skilled art of deductive reasoning he will be a worthy opponent, he has alot of information and facts and seems knowledgable in many areas, he simply needs to apply it logically, considering the logical implications of MADE statements
If you dont believe me slide over to his self-motivated threat on slavery and watch the condemnation of just about anything and everybody elses actions and comments and yet, the simplistic fellow still doesnt understand that if God does not exist and that there is no absolute morality, he for all intents and purposes wasting hot air, and speaking out his arse
he believes and accepts the doctrine of survival of the fitest by implication of his atheism and biological evolution tenets,THEN TURNS RIGHT AROUND AND STARTS CRYING AND COMPLAING ABOUT EVERYBODYS ACTIONS AND BELIEFS.
he has not, to this point understood that by doing this he is A WALKING TALKING BAG OF BS AND THE WORLDS WORST FORM OF CONTRADICTION AND HYPOCRISY.
And yet these same fellas that cry no God and any actions that anyone wishes to participate in, in contradiction to the Bible are acceptable and should be possible, are the first to start crying FOUL, FOUL about someone elses wishes and desires that do not allign with thier perceptions of reality
this idiocy and contradiction never ceases to amaze me
But then I am off topic Peg. Just be aware of his tactics. he is sloopy at best, when trying to think a moral problem out
One day perhaps
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 6:21 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 2:38 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 412 of 427 (547106)
02-16-2010 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Peg
02-15-2010 10:07 PM


Re: The Throne
Rev 12:6 and 14 show that 1,260 days are equivilent to a time and times and half a time, IOW 1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 times.
Ok. I will follow your hokey logic though I don't get where "times" = 2?
A luner month actually = 29.53059 days and therefore 12 luner months would equal approximately 354.36708 days.
7x354.36708 = 2480 days/years.
So it looks like you are off by over 40 years and that your prophetic date should really be 1878. Correct?

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 10:07 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 2:46 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 413 of 427 (547183)
02-17-2010 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by bluescat48
02-16-2010 7:04 AM


Re: The Throne
bluescat48 writes:
I don't know where you get your information but the Hebrew months were alternating 30 & 29 day months with an extra month added about every 3 years to get the moon & sun in sync. As for Genesis, the Hebrew calendar didn't exist at the time of Genesis, it was formed after the Exodus.
You know that i get my information from the bible. According to Genesis 7:11,24; 8:3,4, 150 days was equal to five months. If you dont beleive me, look at the bible yourself...i did provide the reference afterall.
But i do agree with you, there was no calendar back then which is probably why the ancient hebrews counted a month as 30 days. its also noteworthy that they held seasonal festivals so its likely that they made adjustments to keep the seasonal festivals occuring at the right time, but the bible doesnt mention if or how they did this although we know they did create a 13th month called Veadar which may be how they compensated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by bluescat48, posted 02-16-2010 7:04 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 414 of 427 (547186)
02-17-2010 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Dawn Bertot
02-16-2010 10:56 AM


Re: The Throne
EMA writes:
What does "Went into action at that time"(1914) "began its reign"
and "the kingdom was only active upon the christian congregations" Mean?
Without all the involved numbers thingy, (while I am interested in that, but not at present) simply explain from your perspective the philosophical and Biblical premises of these phrases.
sure.
What did jesus do when he was resurrected?
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
34Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand, 35until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.
Hebrews 10:12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet
The above scriptures show that after Jesus resurrection, he sat at Gods right hand and was 'waiting' for the time when his enemies would be placed at his feet. So the kingdom wasnt ruling over the earth immediately.
What did happen immediately was that as the first scripture shows, Jesus was given the promised 'holy spirit' and poured it out on his diciples. So he was active upon his congregation, but not upon his enemies.
If it wasnt for the work of Jesus, the christian faith would not have got very far, yet today we see it has spread right around the globe and is still pulling crowds today.
Jesus even said that this work of spreading the kingdom message would happen at Matthew 24:14 where he was discussing the events that would unfold indicating that the 'end times' had begun And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come
EMA writes:
using the Old and NT as a guide, why would we assume there was a time Gods represenative rule was not in place, considering the Church was his body and Christ was its head since that time period
Firstly, Jesus rule is represented by the congregation, true. But Jesus spoke of more then just ruling a congregation...he was to become the king of the whole earth. All the nations would be subject to him. The earth would be transformed into a literal paradise and human sin and imperfection would be done away with forever, the dead would be resurrected and the earth would have no human rulers ever again.
1Corinthians 15:20However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 21For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27For [God] subjected all things under his feet.
The 2nd point is that the scriptures fortell a time when the gentile nations would trample on the very representation of Gods Kingdom
Luke 21:24 Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled
So according to Jesus, there would be an appointed time where the nations would reign and Gods rulership, as represented by Jerusalem and its temple, would be trampled upon.
EMA writes:
Even if we are talking about a time from captivity to NT times wouldnt the Law of Moses still represent Gods rule, (even if someone was on the actual throne or not, until it was fulfilled in Christ, then from christ forward to the present it is represented by the NT, his headship in the Church, or am I missing something?
his headship is most definately in the church, but which church? The church became very divided after the death of the apostles. There was a split that saw the creation of the orthodox church's and the Catholic churchs' and the protestants and the anglicans just to mention a few.... Jesus said that there should not be divisions among his congregation. So which church is he overseeing? They have different teachings, so who is in harmony with Gods word? Jesus said 'Your Word Is Truth'... would he oversee a church who deviated away from scripture? No.
Have any of the churches even upheld Jesus high principles and morals? No. They have mostly turned their back on christianity in favor of greek philosophy and babylonian religious traditions that Im pretty sure he would strongly object to. So can we say that he is sharing with them? Do you think he would pollute himself with what the church's have become?
You dont have to answer this, its just something to think about.
EMA writes:
So the conclusion from these calculations in your estimation is that the second coming is at hand, near, sooner than we might expect, or distant. Or do they have application now? Not looking for a date or trying to be silly, just your opinion
the 2nd 'coming' is NOW and people are ignoring it.
It began when the war of Revelation broke out and Jesus battled with Satan. From this point on we entered 'the last days' and Satan entered his 'short period of time'
Revelation 7:10b Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God
Rev 7:12On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.
You know what the the Apostle Paul says about people like Devils Advocate
Romans 2:14-15
For whenever people of the nations that do not have (Gods) law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-16-2010 10:56 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-17-2010 8:55 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 415 of 427 (547187)
02-17-2010 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by DevilsAdvocate
02-16-2010 11:34 AM


Re: The Throne
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So it looks like you are off by over 40 years and that your prophetic date should really be 1878. Correct?
mans time table and Gods time table is different i'll agree
but seeing it is Gods prophecy, we reasonably should apply his time table to the calculation....even if it makes us look silly
This is also why WT dates are slightly different to secular dates for historical events... we use the bibles timetable of events. The bible has a chronology of its own and when that chronology is traced, the dates for events such as Babylons destruction of Jerusalem comes out slightly different.
Trusting in God means trusting that the bible was penned under his guidance and therefore must be accurate. Im sure you'd agree that whoever put the sun and stars into motion are a superb mathematician... i think we can trust his calculations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-16-2010 11:34 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-17-2010 6:26 AM Peg has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 416 of 427 (547199)
02-17-2010 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Peg
02-17-2010 2:46 AM


Re: The Throne
Peg writes:
Me writes:
Ok. I will follow your hokey logic though I don't get where "times" = 2?
A luner month actually = 29.53059 days and therefore 12 luner months would equal approximately 354.36708 days.
7x354.36708 = 2480 days/years.
So it looks like you are off by over 40 years and that your prophetic date should really be 1878.
mans time table and Gods time table is different i'll agree
but seeing it is Gods prophecy, we reasonably should apply his time table to the calculation....even if it makes us look silly
This is also why WT dates are slightly different to secular dates for historical events... we use the bibles timetable of events. The bible has a chronology of its own and when that chronology is traced, the dates for events such as Babylons destruction of Jerusalem comes out slightly different.
I actually forgot to factor in the Jewish Leap Years. However, even when I factored these in, the math came out to be 2556 years vice your 2520 years. This is still off by your date by 16 years. Check my math if you want (7 extra months every 19 year cycle)
Trusting in God means trusting that the bible was penned under his guidance and therefore must be accurate.
The problem is that how do we know YOUR calculations are right? Do you speak for God? It is this self-righteous pompous "I speak for God" attitude that pisses a lot of people off, including other Christians.
Im sure you'd agree that whoever put the sun and stars into motion are a superb mathematician... i think we can trust his calculations
Maybe but not YOUR calculations. Where in the Bible does it say specifically 2520 years much less what date it is supposed to start from? That is right. No where. You are creating crap out of thin air and snake-oil selling it to the public as if you can read the mind of God and forsee the future. I shouldn't even give you this much credit. Rather you are regurgitating 100 year old prophecies with faulty logic/math by nutjobs based on very loose interpretations of your fabricated book.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 2:46 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 6:33 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 417 of 427 (547200)
02-17-2010 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by DevilsAdvocate
02-17-2010 6:26 AM


Re: The Throne
you certainly dont have to believe anything i say... no one has a gun to your head.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-17-2010 6:26 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-17-2010 6:41 AM Peg has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2592 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 418 of 427 (547203)
02-17-2010 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Peg
02-17-2010 6:33 AM


Re: The Throne
you certainly dont have to believe anything i say... no one has a gun to your head.
I don't. That is the whole point of this discussion. I am challenging your faulty reasoning and logic. That is the point of this forum is it not, to debate? Or why do you post here? To spew your pseudoscientific, illogical, snake-oil nonsense?

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 6:33 AM Peg has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 991 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 419 of 427 (547209)
02-17-2010 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Peg
02-17-2010 2:38 AM


Re: The Throne
Avils Devocate writes:
I don't. That is the whole point of this discussion. I am challenging your faulty reasoning and logic. That is the point of this forum is it not, to debate? Or why do you post here? To spew your pseudoscientific, illogical, snake-oil nonsense?
Whoo wee, that Boys torked off isnt he?
Peg writes:
What did jesus do when he was resurrected?
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.
Hebrews 10:12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet
The above scriptures show that after Jesus resurrection, he sat at Gods right hand and was 'waiting' for the time when his enemies would be placed at his feet. So the kingdom wasnt ruling over the earth immediately.
remember that within our context, these are just simple disagreements, your salvation does not depend on how much you get right after initial justification and sanctification in Christ.
In your context here, we would slightly disagree, that even while he was waiting for his enemies to be laced under his feet he still had complete authority and rule
Col 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Paul is of course speaking after the fact, indicating that all authority and power is afforded him, even outside the Church
Peg writes
Firstly, Jesus rule is represented by the congregation, true. But Jesus spoke of more then just ruling a congregation...he was to become the king of the whole earth. All the nations would be subject to him. The earth would be transformed into a literal paradise and human sin and imperfection would be done away with forever, the dead would be resurrected and the earth would have no human rulers ever again.
Again here you and I would only have a slight disagreement concering what christ is presently doing. Paul in the following verses seems to draw a distinction between christs rule and seems to indicate he is NOW ruling in heaven the earth and the church
Eph 1:
15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
what do you think?
The 2nd point is that the scriptures fortell a time when the gentile nations would trample on the very representation of Gods Kingdom
Luke 21:24 Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled
So according to Jesus, there would be an appointed time where the nations would reign and Gods rulership, as represented by Jerusalem and its temple, would be trampled upon.
while the above verse is certainly concerned with the destruction of jerusealem, and plans God has for the nations concering historical events, I dont believe it affects Christs success and fulfilments.
Since the mosaic law and the Old covenant were fulfilled and completed at time of his death buial and resurrection, as was indicated by the tearing of the temple vail, a distinction should be made here between what is going to happen with the actual city of jerusalem and the jewish people what Gods (Christs) actual plan accomplished at that time.
Col 2:14
14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
So possibly, I dont think you will agree, but a distinction could be made here as to what Christ actually accomplished, then what physical historical plans were to take place concering his previous relationship with the children of Israel
Luke 21:
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
The salvation under consideration here is from the destruction of Jersalem, not slavation from sin, which was effected on the cross
So according to Jesus, there would be an appointed time where the nations would reign and Gods rulership, as represented by Jerusalem and its temple, would be trampled upon
So as Paul indicates his rule and authority was never in question and he effected and completed all the success paul mentions and has never lost that authority and rulership, even if he still has enemies.
while jerusalem was to be affected by the nations, I dont think we could conclude at that point and specifically thereafter that jerusalem represented Gods authority anymore, regardless of what historical events took place as result of the gentiles.
since no authority was ever misplaced IN ACTUALITY and nothing was ever lost regardless of what the gentiles nations did, it would be seprate as historical events not effecting Gods plans for the church or kingdom
his headship is most definately in the church, but which church? The church became very divided after the death of the apostles. There was a split that saw the creation of the orthodox church's and the Catholic churchs' and the protestants and the anglicans just to mention a few.... Jesus said that there should not be divisions among his congregation. So which church is he overseeing? They have different teachings, so who is in harmony with Gods word? Jesus said 'Your Word Is Truth'... would he oversee a church who deviated away from scripture? No.
Everyone wants to believe they are the doctrinally pure Church, but this precludes what a christian is in the first place. One is either in Christ, a member of the body or they are not. having obeyed the Gospel one should desire to abide in the teachings of Christ
One really needs to examine the scriptures intially to try and determine what are matters of faith and fellowship and what are matters of interpretation and opinion. here is an example.
John said if any man does not believe jesus christ came in the flesh, he has neither the father or the son and with such a one do not eat. A matter of fellowship.
Since you brought it up where would you draw the lineo n fellowship and what people believe and teach to make such distinctions
Have any of the churches even upheld Jesus high principles and morals? No. They have mostly turned their back on christianity in favor of greek philosophy and babylonian religious traditions that Im pretty sure he would strongly object to. So can we say that he is sharing with them? Do you think he would pollute himself with what the church's have become?
what do you think is the dividing line of fellowship in doctrinal matters, what is acceptable to get wrong and what is not. if for example you and i disagree on blood transfusions, the 1000 year reign of christ, the plan of salvation, where it the line
You dont have to answer this, its just something to think about.
its not just something to think about if action is required as it often is. As a Jehovahs Wittness, do you consider the others here that have obyed WHAT THEY BELIEVE TO BE THE GOSPEL AS CHRISTIANS?
EAM
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 2:38 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 8:46 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4420 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 420 of 427 (547283)
02-17-2010 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Dawn Bertot
02-17-2010 8:55 AM


Re: The Throne
EMA writes:
In your context here, we would slightly disagree, that even while he was waiting for his enemies to be laced under his feet he still had complete authority and rule
I do agree, he was placed in the highest position besides God, so yes
But how did he excercise his authority and rule up until the time when the war in heaven broke out? Satan was obviously still in the heavens up until that time and revelation says that satan was "the accuser of our brothers..., who accuses them day and night before our God. Revelation 12:10. So he was obviously in heaveny and showing his opposition to God yet Jesus did not use his authority to stop him until the war.
EMA writes:
Paul in the following verses seems to draw a distinction between christs rule and seems to indicate he is NOW ruling in heaven the earth and the church
But you may notice that Paul speaks of the 'hope'
a hope is not something that is here now...it is something off into the future. The hope that the apostles spoke of regularly was the resurrection.
Acts: 24:15 I have hope toward God, of which hope these men also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of the both the righteous and the unrighteous
Has that hope been realised yet? We cant say that it has because the resurrection has not occured yet. So the full scope of Jesus authority on earth has not been realised.
Jesus was also said to bring an end to 'the last enemy death' 1Cor15:26
Yet people are still dieing... so we cant say he has fully excersized his earthly authority yet.
EMA writes:
while the above verse is certainly concerned with the destruction of jerusealem, and plans God has for the nations concering historical events, I dont believe it affects Christs success and fulfilments.
it certainly doesnt affect his success over the congregation... we can clearly see that.
But that isnt really about the destruction of the physical temple in Jerusalem. It has to do with 'the appointed times of the nations'
these began when the last king of Isreal was dethroned back in 607bce. The appointed times continued thru to, and beyond, Jesus day... so he wasnt talking about the destruction of physical jerusalem.
EMA writes:
So as Paul indicates his rule and authority was never in question and he effected and completed all the success paul mentions and has never lost that authority and rulership, even if he still has enemies.
while jerusalem was to be affected by the nations, I dont think we could conclude at that point and specifically thereafter that jerusalem represented Gods authority anymore, regardless of what historical events took place as result of the gentiles.
since no authority was ever misplaced IN ACTUALITY and nothing was ever lost regardless of what the gentiles nations did, it would be seprate as historical events not effecting Gods plans for the church or kingdom
But Jerusalem and its line of Davidic Kings was the physical earthly representation of Gods rulership. When that was gone, there was no physcial earthly representation anymore.
Gods authority was transfered to Jesus in his heavenly kingdom... it was active and excersized authority over the church only... Until the time that Jesus went into action against the kingdoms enemies.
EMA writes:
Since you brought it up where would you draw the lineo n fellowship and what people believe and teach to make such distinctions
obviously i believe the bible should be the marker... it provides the only source of true doctrine
EMA writes:
what do you think is the dividing line of fellowship in doctrinal matters, what is acceptable to get wrong and what is not. if for example you and i disagree on blood transfusions, the 1000 year reign of christ, the plan of salvation, where it the line
There are some very basic biblical doctrines that should form the basis of everyone's form of christianity
The would include things like knowing Gods identity and name as the very basis. Most church's know that Jehovah is Gods personal name, yet they wont use it. This is the name found at the tops of medieval churchs...its found in older versions of the KJV bible... yet they've removed it in more recent versions... .then modern translators refuse to use the name altogether.
So most chruch goers believe that Jesus IS God... they dont even know that God has a personal name.
Another fundamental bible teaching is that of the resurrection of the dead. Christians should know that this was the very hope that the apostles preached. They said, if the resurrection is not true, we might as well not even be christians. Yet how many christians actually know of this hope??? Not many at all. Their belief is that they will go to heaven when they die which is a falsehood.
The churhc's are responsible for this sort of misinformation and If you were Jesus, would you be happy knowing that very few of your followers actually know this vital information??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-17-2010 8:55 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-20-2010 10:38 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 422 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-24-2010 9:49 AM Peg has not replied

  
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