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Author Topic:   At what point should we look for a non-materialistic explanation?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2372 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 76 of 160 (538086)
12-03-2009 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Buzsaw
12-03-2009 12:07 PM


Re: Clarification
Buzsaw writes:
Why do I so adamantly believe this? Because for 74 years I have observed, via study, research and personal experience, sufficient multiple corroborated non-materalistically explained phenomenal evidence to empirically convince me that there is ultimately a non-materialistic explanation (I say 'explanation) for all that is observed.
And might I enquire as to how you know there is a non-materialistic explanation for these materialistic phenomena? And how do you know it is indeed your god that is the source for that?

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 12-03-2009 12:07 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 77 of 160 (538089)
12-03-2009 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Buzsaw
12-03-2009 12:07 PM


Re: Clarification
So could you give me one or two examples of a material event that has a non-material explanation?
This does sound like irreducible complexity to me, though, as you seem to say that there will be a point when our science cannot answer some of the questions we have about the universe; is this the case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Buzsaw, posted 12-03-2009 12:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2183 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 78 of 160 (538090)
12-03-2009 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Buzsaw
12-03-2009 9:02 AM


Re: Clarification
How many times do I need to say it? The evidence is materialistic and as per topic title, the explanation is not-materialistic, as per the examples which I have cited. Have you been reading?
Yes, but not accepting your assertions as evidence.
Here's how it works. The Biblical record alleges certain events which entail the non-materialistic explanation. Observable materialistic research and history etc, in time, attest to the veracity of the non-materialistic explained claims or events recorded in the Biblical record.
quote:
It does not pay a prophet to be too specific.
--L. Sprague de Camp
If you make enough predictions some will be accurate. But you can't make claims for the inerrancy of the biblical record while there is that giant boo-boo of the global flood.
With DNA, the more complexity that is discovered via research, the more plausible the non-materialistic explanation becomes. With archeological research, such as the alleged Exodus site, the more corroborative evidence discovered in the region of the chariot debris in the sea, the more plausible the non-materialistic explanation for what is observed becomes.
Not so. You first have to eliminate the materialistic explanations. And for rusted chariot debris at the bottom of a lake there are many such explanations.
Conventional science and secularism appears to have no inclination for consideration to the possibility of a non-materialistic explanation of anything. Secularists would rather eat worms than to admit to a non-materialistic explanation for even one of the scores of fulfilled Biblical propecies, such as the amazing phenomena of Israel's preservation and restoration to return to the homeland after 19 long centuries of global exile in multiple nations, many from the opposite regions of the planet.
Non-materialist explanations are not needed, nor is there any evidence for them. There are claims based on religious belief, and some of those claims can be verified. But then the Iliad claimed Troy was a real place, and that was verified a long time later. Do you claim some supernatural event there as well?
The problem is that you are doing religious apologetics, seeking to support religious beliefs. You are not doing science, which goes where the data lead.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4793 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 79 of 160 (538105)
12-03-2009 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Buzsaw
12-03-2009 9:02 AM


Re: Clarification
Hi Buzsaw
I recently went to the mall. While there I had to go from the ®RadioShack® to the Foot Locker. But there was a wee bit of a problem. Between the two there was a fountain. So, using my non-materialistic powers I separated the waters and walked through the chasm, keeping my feet dry. As I walked across the dry fountain bed I dropped many coins of all denominations.
As material evidence of my parting of the waters I include pictures of ®RadioShack®, the Foot Locker, a picture of a fountain, a variety coins in water and dry feet. Also note that the picture of the fountain is between the ®RadioShack® and the Foot Locker where I said it was.
Is there any possible doubt of the veracity of my tale? If so, why?
Edited by AdminModulous, : broke up the images from being one long line of five pictures that would cause the irritating "wide thread" problem for some setups.

The world breaks everyone, and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those it cannot break, it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these, you can be sure that it will kill you too, but there will be no special hurry.
Ernest Hemingway

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Buzsaw, posted 12-03-2009 9:02 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1581 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 80 of 160 (538110)
12-03-2009 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by lyx2no
12-02-2009 5:43 PM


Re: You Need to Watch More TV
Hello,
The link I provided in the post you responded to shows a amputee manipulating a mechanical hand not connected to his body, with his thoughts. psycokinisis or what ever one cares to call it, is still a example of non-material effecting the material world. If thoughts (which are non-material) can effect our physical reality, then this opens up a whole can of worms. I realize one need not invoke the spirit world as a explaination. However simply dismissing something as electrical impulses isn't the answer either. Where did these impulses propagate from, how did the information go from a thought to a machine hand not connected to a body? This to me is amazing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by lyx2no, posted 12-02-2009 5:43 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 12-03-2009 6:13 PM 1.61803 has replied
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Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4965 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 81 of 160 (538111)
12-03-2009 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by 1.61803
12-03-2009 6:03 PM


Re: You Need to Watch More TV
Hi 1.61,
The link I provided in the post you responded to shows a amputee manipulating a mechanical hand not connected to his body, with his thoughts. psycokinisis or what ever one cares to call it, is still a example of non-material effecting the material world. If thoughts (which are non-material) can effect our physical reality, then this opens up a whole can of worms. I realize one need not invoke the spirit world as a explaination. However simply dismissing something as electrical impulses isn't the answer either. Where did these impulses propagate from, how did the information go from a thought to a machine hand not connected to a body? This to me is amazing.
I think that you're missing the point 1.61; if anything, his moving of the mechanical arm is even more proof of a materialistic explanation. The reason it works is that it uses the same electronic impulses as a normal arm would. If you wanted, you could see exactly how it connects to the brain and receives the signal- it's fascinating stuff.
If you want to advocate a non-materialistic explanation, then how does your theory work? What 'impulse' does your psychokinesis tap into? Is it supported empirically?
Where did these impulses propagate from, how did the information go from a thought to a machine hand not connected to a body? This to me is amazing.
What you are missing is that there is no 'thought' in the sense of 'mind over matter;' there are only electronic impulses that we, as biological machines, 'perceive' as 'thoughts.'
And though the electric hand might not be directly 'connected' to the body, it most likely has electrodes connecting it to the brain in some manner; if not- hey, I don't know everything about neurology!
T&U

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Stephen Roberts
I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in
- Dan Foutes
"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by 1.61803, posted 12-03-2009 6:03 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by 1.61803, posted 12-03-2009 6:25 PM Teapots&unicorns has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1581 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 82 of 160 (538112)
12-03-2009 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Teapots&unicorns
12-03-2009 6:13 PM


Re: You Need to Watch More TV
Hi Teapot,
If you want to advocate a non-materialistic explanation, then how does your theory work? What 'impulse' does your psychokinesis tap into? Is it supported empirically?
The machine hand is NOT connected to the brain. Thats why its freaky. I have no evidence of "psyco kinisis" perhaps spooky action at a distance, some sort of quantum entanglement. All I know is the stuff Buddhist and Hindus been saying for millennium like separateness is an illusion, and "There is no spoon is bearing out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 12-03-2009 6:13 PM Teapots&unicorns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Wounded King, posted 12-03-2009 6:49 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 110 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 83 of 160 (538113)
12-03-2009 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by 1.61803
12-03-2009 6:25 PM


You Need to learn to read
The machine hand is NOT connected to the brain.
This is arguably true technically. But your whole argument based on this news piece is a fantasy of nonsensical make-believe.
"The Italy-based team said at a news conference in Rome on Wednesday that in 2008 it implanted electrodes into the nerves located in what remained of Petruzziello's left arm, which was cut off in a crash some three years ago."
also ...
"More must also be done to miniaturize the technology on the arm and the bulky machines that translate neural and digital signals between the robot and the patient."
You may argue the distinction of the peripheral nervous system vs. the central nervous system vs. the brain proper, but you can't just wish away the fact that they connected the hand to his nervous system with electrodes. Either you just didn't actually read the article or you are being insanely obtuse.
It certainly isn't ...
a mechanical hand not connected to his body
The hand itself is not attached to his body, but it is certainly connected to it by wires and electrodes.
Did you maybe just read the headline? That is how it seems considering the gigantic disconnect between how you are presenting this and what is in the actual news article you linked to.
The only thing spooky is your ability to turn an example of the success of the reductionist materialist approach into woo filled nonsense.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by 1.61803, posted 12-03-2009 6:25 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4793 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 84 of 160 (538114)
12-03-2009 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by 1.61803
12-03-2009 6:03 PM


Re: You Need to Watch More TV
The link I provided in the post you responded to shows a amputee manipulating a mechanical hand not connected to his body, with his thoughts.
He was not connected to the arm in the photo, but one need go no farther than the caption to find:
quote:
European scientists say they successfully connected him to the robotic hand, using electrodes to his body, allowing him to control the prosthetic with his thoughts and feel sensations in the artificial limb.
That the popular press, NPR, would resort to sloppy usage of the word "thought" should not lead one astray. He is controlling the arm using EMF produced in the same way you do to move your own arm. Should we consider magnetic fields non-material?
psycokinisis or what ever one cares to call it, is still a example of non-material effecting the material world.
When I wrote Frankly, even if the arm had been moved psychokinetically we'd not have evidence of non-materialistic explanations but of psychokinesis being material. I should have followed it up with the parenthetical "(rather than imaginary.)" Psychokinesis if the result of poor observation. It never occurs under the watch of properly trained observers.
However, if psychokinesis could be demonstrated it would be as material as gravity. It is currently regarded as non-material because that is the excuse needed by its advocates to explain why it can not be demonstrated.
If thoughts (which are non-material) can effect our physical reality, then this opens up a whole can of worms.
Thoughts are generated electro-chemically. We can see them being formed in the brain with FMRI and EEGs.
That we can not as yet understand the language doesn't make them non-material. And there is no evidence that thoughts themselves have any ability to to effect physical reality.
However simply dismissing something as electrical impulses isn't the answer either.
It is when one can measure them.
Where did these impulses propagate from
See FMRI above.
how did the information go from a thought to a machine hand not connected to a body?
It didn't. It was connected to the operator's body by electrodes. And again, it didn't read the subjects thoughts but the EMF he generated.
This to me is amazing.
It's even more amazing when one understands it. Science does not make the world less amazing but more. I'd not dare to think that I have a greater sense of the beauty of music than Brahms because he understands it more than I.
Edited by lyx2no, : Fix my own equivocal use of he word "thought".
Edited by lyx2no, : Typo.

The world breaks everyone, and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those it cannot break, it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these, you can be sure that it will kill you too, but there will be no special hurry.
Ernest Hemingway

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by 1.61803, posted 12-03-2009 6:03 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 160 (538122)
12-03-2009 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Huntard
12-03-2009 1:13 PM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Huntard writes:
And might I enquire as to how you know there is a non-materialistic explanation for these materialistic phenomena? And how do you know it is indeed your god that is the source for that?
Hi Huntard. To fully answer your question would require a book, especially the personal experience aspect. I'll try to concisely cite a few of the corroborating evidences that have brought me to empirically know that Jehovah, god of the Bible exists and that the Biblical record of expanations for materialistic obversations is reliable. I say concisely because it would lead off topic in order to fully cover or debate them.
1. Exodus evidence cited.
2. Complexity of things like DNA, etc.
3. Fulfilled Prophecy pertaing to Israel's restoration at a time when the surrounding nations call for their demise and claim their land.
4. Prophecy of nations which bless/help Israel which Jehovah has promised to, intern, bless. Prophecies of cursings of nations which curse Israel which God will punish.
5. The End time fulfillment of Ezekiel, Zechariah and others that the nations will be drawn into the Middle East to war and which will eventually invade Israel, calling for them to give up their land etc.
6. Jehovah's promise via the prophets to preserve Israel and fight for them against their enemies up until the nations actually invade and occupy (Armageddon) when they will then fight each other for the prize and Jesus comes to destroy the armies assembled at the the Kedron Valley (Valley of Jehosaphat) just outside Israel.
7. Prophecies of other corroborating phenomena to happen in the last days which we observe in our day, never before to have been observed on Earth, as follows.
8. Emerging cashless global monetary system requiring marks and numbers to buy and sell. This phomena is emerging and imo, the never before hyper inflationary trend via global non-backed printing of paper money globally which will likely result in the mark and number global monetary system which some are already calling for. See Revelation 13.
9. The emergence of a global empire encompassing every nation, tribe and tongue of the planet, i.e. the New World Order which the Bush's Obama and other world leaders have called for.
10 Prophecies of the 1st advent of Jesus including the crucifixion events the birth, etc written before the fact.
11. Fulfillment of Jesus's prophecy in the Luke 21 Olivet Discourse when he prophesied the destruction which was to happen in Jerusalem and that it would be occupied by Gentiles until the Gentile occupation would end. This was fulfilled in the 1967 Six Day War when the Jews marched into the old walled city and began their occupation.
12. The prophecies concerning climate change and the rapid occurances of destruction relative to the climate etc.
13 Prophecies of the ability of all nations becoming able to observe and event in on location on earth simultaneously, i.e. modern media tech. Revelation 13 alludes to a speaking image which would be worshipped by all nations tribes and tongues. TV tech fits the bill, as emerging Islamic domination will continue the rapid advancement into world domination via violence. The penalty of refusal to worship the image will be punishable by death, as per Shariah Islamic law. Many who refuse will be beheaded as per Revelation 20 and Islamic tradition.
14. The prophecy of great tribulation and suffering of Christians, known as severe tribulation in the end time. This is ongoing in Muslim and Communist totalitarian nations.
15. Phenomenal increase in knowledge and travel as per Daniel 12, pertaining the the end times.
16. Increasing global cloudiness since the 1950s coincides with the Biblical prophecies that Jesus will come with clouds and the sun & moon will be partially darkened. Perhaps I can find the time to do a thread on my hypothesis as to how the global pre-flood canopy likely will relatively suddenly be restored to the planet, effecting climatic paradise on the planet for the prophesied millenial kingdom.
17. Falling stars Had a Biblical prophet envisioned a satelite at night he would describe it as a star. Jesus and prophets allude to falling stars before the return of messiah. We know actual stars many times greater than earth could not fall to earth. But now we have all of the man made lights up in the sky, capable of falling which will likely happen when messiah takes control. As well, if a terrorist gets the right tech to shut the grid down etc that could be the explanation.
18. Isaiah 3 prophesies that in the latter days that "children will oppress you and women will rule over you." Need I say more on this as the trend is going and as discipline of children wanes? In some nations, desperate hungry orphans resort to crime and in places like Iran, youth thug militia help the government keep the sheeples in line. Now our lustrous president envisions a civilian army as big as our military to help out in his ambitions to change America The Nazi's had their oppressive youth movement, etc.
20 Personal experience. I have personally had one empirically sudden healing by anointing of oil and prayer of the elders. I have stated other manifestations at EvC in the past. I'll cite one for example. I quit my first good job working on a geophysical crew in the mountains in Wyoming, a job I loved. We did not have to work Sundays, my church day then but the work picked up and it became necessary for me to work Sundays if I stayed. I opted to quit because I regarded church attendance as priority. I joined the Air Force in 1954 when the Air Force gave aptitude tests to determine the training. I was ordered to train for and become a jet mechanic, a critical field which required weekend duty. Being a critical field it was against AF regs to change duty. However while at Bob Jones University where I attended 3 semesters I took advanced typing, being the only male in the class as I wanted to learn to type well. To make it short, after jet training at Amarillo AFB I was sent to Griffiss AFB in NY state. Providence (non-materialistic explanation) had it that the hanger office needed a clerk to type up stuff etc. The first week there, I was called into the office and asked if I would like a five day a week job in the office. Of course I was elated. In short, I was at Griffiss for the whole four year term, first in the hanger office and then in the Squadron office as finance clerk. At Rome where the base was there is Delta Lake Bible Camp where I was able to get lots of inspiration, hear great preachers and meet local folks who treated me well, having me out to dinners and allowing use of their boat and cabin which they owned on Delta Lake.
If this were a lone phenomena of such magnitude, it would not it wouldn't necessarily be regarded as imperical evidence but it is just one example of scores of remarkable answers to prayer, etc.
Here's how it works with Jehovah.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with ... And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart.
And this:
James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
And this:
For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him.
My apologies for the length of this message, but hopefully this will suffice as an answer to yours and other inquiries as to why I adamantly hold to the Biblical record as reliable for non-materialistic explanations of material observations.
Having said the above, much of what I have observed I cannot convey so as to convince anyone else. Perhaps it will motivate some agnostic or athiest to hunt for truth by considering all of the avenues for explanations as per your signature.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Huntard, posted 12-03-2009 1:13 PM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 6:22 AM Buzsaw has replied
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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 86 of 160 (538144)
12-04-2009 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Buzsaw
12-03-2009 9:22 PM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Complexity of things like DNA, etc.
I'm going to ask you to focus on this one, if I may.
Could you specify exactly how the material DNA has a non-material explantion and in which way the DNA is explained?
I know I've asked before but you reply to this point has not been clear to me. Could you explain your reasoning in the most simplistic terms availible (to help my poor noggin from getting confused )
Sorry to be like a dog with a bone but it would help me greatly see where you are comming from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 12-03-2009 9:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 12-04-2009 8:53 AM Larni has replied
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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 87 of 160 (538146)
12-04-2009 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by lyx2no
12-03-2009 7:05 PM


Re: You Need to Watch More TV
It's even more amazing when one understands it. Science does not make the world less amazing but more. I'd not dare to think that I have a greater sense of the beauty of music than Brahms because he understands it more than I.
Damn fine point, that man!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by lyx2no, posted 12-03-2009 7:05 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 160 (538155)
12-04-2009 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Larni
12-04-2009 6:22 AM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Larni writes:
Could you specify exactly how the material DNA has a non-material explantion and in which way the DNA is explained?
I know I've asked before but you reply to this point has not been clear to me. Could you explain your reasoning in the most simplistic terms availible (to help my poor noggin from getting confused )
Sorry to be like a dog with a bone but it would help me greatly see where you are comming from.
Hi Larni. Did you read and assimilate
this link which I cited in message 6 of page one of this thread?
As Lyx2no implicates articulately, they who understand it better than I can explain it better than I.
If you want to read the DNA exerpt which I cited, go to message 6 of page one, but to better answer your question, you should take the time to do a reading of the whole page.
For some reason I cannot url link the message # 6 of page one. The properties takes me to the top of the page rather than the message.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 6:22 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 9:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 160 (538156)
12-04-2009 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Larni
12-04-2009 6:22 AM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Larni writes:
The thing is that non-material explanations have never been shown to explain anything with any rigour: why then should they be used at all?
Hi Larni. I double posted so I'm editing in the above from your message 64 for a response.
How else would you better explain the Exodus data which I have cited than a non-materialistic explanation? The materialistic minded folks have shown no interest in a materialistic research of the archeologically significant site.
Edited by Buzsaw, : change message

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Larni, posted 12-04-2009 6:22 AM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 90 of 160 (538157)
12-04-2009 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
12-04-2009 8:53 AM


Re: The Non-Materialistic Explanation
Hi Buz, I have read the link but I have to say it's not good science at all. The first thing that caught my eye is when it says that there is a boundary that prevents micro evolution from becoming macro but it does not state what or even what it is.
There is no need for non-material explanations when the material explanations work.
Your link displays a lack of understanding of biology and then makes a claim that because the author does not understand something it must have a non-material cause.
It's full of bad science, Buz.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 12-04-2009 8:53 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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