What gives God the right to be "holy"?

At times that is how he comes across. Some considerations: Mankind is born with innate desires which could only have been supplied by its Creator. Then he tells you have a choice to deny the appetites of the flesh.Then why make mankind so enamored with the flesh in the first place? It is foolish not to question the word for its validity, for how else would one know if it actually came from God versus various men throughout history claiming it to be from God? I assume you could appreciate that given that all other religions operate in this manner.Belief in the bible for many people is circular. They take the authority of the bible on the authority the bible gives itself.Question: How do you know the bible comes from God?Answer: The bible says so.

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

It makes no difference whether we have children or not. Everyone of us has been a child and I am sure have some exposure to children so saying that you can't use this analogy because you do not have children of your own is ludicrous. One word, teen-agers. Yet, we do not hold our children to a standard that is impossible for anyone to mantain and then sentance them to eternal torment in hell because they can't meet this ridiculously stupid standard.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

What gives God the right to be "holy"?Interesting argument, or discussion, if you will. How dare God define the terms of reality? (IF God exists, of course. ) Personally, I have no problems with God being Holy. I would have a much bigger problem if God were evil or unfair. I DO have a problem with humans being sinners. It would have been much easier for God to have also made us Holy. Depends, of course, on who determines the definition of the word and whether the "Creator" mantle carries any weight in the grand scheme of things. So even God has limitations? He has to be holy? Comments so far?

As an atheist I am totally free of God. Why do I not notice this Hell you speak of? I mean, entirely nonchalant: look, a fleck of dust on my lapel. Why don't you notice my not noticing this Hell? What leads you to think it would be?

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It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.

But you forget that as the state of holiness is contingent upon the dictates of Yahweh and you choose not to recognise his state of grace you must be deceiving yourself.If only you knew what true happiness was...(as defined by Yahweh, of course).Edited by Larni, : Lying to deceiving.

As it is such a simple and self consistent deception I shall content myself with it. Though, as I watch the professionally pious twist themselves in knots to explain the mundane instead of just saying "Opps!", I cannot help but think they are the creators of Hell.

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It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.

I agree 100% with jaywill on the definition of God's holiness: The Hebrew word "to be holy" is quadash which is derived from the root word "qud" which means "to cur or separate". God's holiness is a very unique and incomprehensible attribute. His holiness permeates His entire being and makes His other attributes unattainable by any human, angel or any other created being. Thus His love is holy, His justice is holy, His mercy is holy, one could say that all the attributes attributed to Him make them His because they are holy. They, as an aggregate of holy attributes, make Him separate from the rest of creation. He is in a league by himself and no one can enter that league by their effort, no matter how earnest, pious, or charitable they may be. Two Biblical examples that speak this out loud are Moses' and Isaiah's encounter with God. When Isaiah sees God in a vision, He is completely distraught on looking at his sinful nature when in the presence of holy God:Is 6: 1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.When Moses encounters God in the burning bush, God tells him to remove his sandals because the place he ground he was standing on was holy because of the presence of the Lord in that place.Exodus 3: 1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.Now, as to God self-proclaiming Himself to be holy--and we understand that holiness is a sum total of all His attributes--I, don't see how or why that is a problem. You have looked at the Fall in a most twisted perspective. Sin separated man from God. It was just one sin that separated man from God...and a lot of people contend that eating an "apple" surely doesn't warrant eternal punishments like hell etc etc...". And I mean separated in the most literal sense of the word. For we were dead in our trangression...says the Bible. Man died spiritually. The good nature that God had given Adam and Eve was no longer active, it died. Period. Not only was their no communication between man and God, but also the communication could never take place again unless God facilitated a way for it to. And that's exactly what Jesus did on the cross. God did not create hell for rule-breakers. For that matter, I break rules (not on purpose, mind you), does that mean I'll go to hell. No, I believe that Christ payed for my sins and they no more are attributed to me. Who then goes to hell if its not the rule-breaker? Its the God-rejector. THATS who hell was made for. For those who like being separated from God who are content with their fallen state. Rule-breaking is out of the question (when it comes to the Fall). Lets talk in terms of the Bible. In terms of togetherness and separation if we are talking about the God of the Bible. You could correct your last sentence to say "{He}it consigns A&E and all of their {unbelieving} descendents to ETERNAL SUFFERING... And this just because God hsa decided that it is holy {God provided a way of salvation}, and cannot abide rule-breaking {remove word and insert " rebellious separation from Him"}. Now, that would be reasonable and Biblical. You are right on about God making a choice to be holy. He decides what He will be. However, His decision to be holy does not result in the creation of hell for unbelievers. Like I said, God did not make hell for rule-breakers, He did for God-haters. If you want to way to say God-hating is a kind of rule-breaking, sorry, but the bible would disagree.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : words!

A common misconception in the minds of atheists is that God payed Himself the price He had set for sin; that paying yourself a price is as good as not paying anything at all. One can their put their feet in most dreadful slew like this who either have an incomplete, unguided interpretation of the Word of God or a self-glorifying, God-hating worldview. It cost Jesus his life, his blood, tears and sweat, not His weekend, to pay for mankind's sins. Furthermore, and most important of all, God the Father viewed Christ (also God) as a sinner hanging on the cross. When Christ took on mankind's sin on Himself, he showed them to God and said "look God, take these sins that *so and so* committed as mine, and I will suffer for them. Give me the punishment that ALL of them deserve, I'll take it gladly, but please, FORGIVE THEM"Why do you talk about pointlessness and tyranny? Why do you hate a God that is just and loving? I see no other sane explanation that mere God-directed insolence???One might argue that the judgment for sin/hell/suffering/pain can b avoided if God just didn't care so much about Himself and keeping His commandments. I think one of His attributes, Immutability, provides a an answer to this argument. Once God decides on someone, He cannot and will not change his decision. Infact, there is no need for Him to change anything. He does not evolve. Perhaps that's why God can't just say "alright, I know you didn't mean to sin, you guys are innocent, lets just forget it all and be happy forever and I'll take of that devil" (well, God will take care of the devil, that's for sure.) I mean here, that once God's makes a law, He cannot change it. And this not a lack of omnipotence at all. Its His immutability. He cannot somehow attain a evil nature, and an evil nature is surely required to contradict one's own law/overlook sin without punishing it. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : explanation in last paragraph

A common misconception of ignorant christians is to lump atheists together like a herd of sheep. So, now this bible thumper says jesus is a mere mortal. you all should get together and stick to one explanation, it's getting confusing: jesus is god/jesus is a man/god the trinity/god the son. Who hates this god fella? I assume that is directed at atheists, which you jumbled into one neat little group. how can "we as atheists" hate that which is not there?Christians hate the FSM. I see no other explanation for your rant than seeing the world through childrens eyes. FSM directed insolence, rather.

To me, its sure sounds like it. It sounds like a lot of atheists hate the God of the Bible when they speak. Their questions seem to stem from hatred rather than inquisition. I'm not saying you do. No, it is insolence direct towards God. Or maybe ignorant people heading towards the jaws of death hoping to see a world of pleasure, beauty, and fulfillment only to know that they will be disappointed, to say the least? The Bible says that Jesus is God.I don't care about all Christians getting together to decide on what the Bible says more than what the Bible itself tells me. And this is all that should matter to you when you are studying the Bible.The Bible says that Jesus Christ (the second person of the Trinity) took the form of a human being to provide man with an escape from eternal damnation. To answer your question, Jesus was God in man's form.John 1The Word Became Flesh1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.Also, God is not to be thought of as a name, but as an essence. The essence "God" is characteristic of God the Father, Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit. Perhaps this clears some ambiguity? Edited by Dr. Sing, : typoEdited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

No, your insolence is directed at the FSM. Then how is him dying for a few days a problem? Physical death hurts your almighty? Sounds pretty weak if you ask me. And such is the problem with christianity: it is not congruent. You all read the same book, worship the same guy....yet you all say something different. Try to be less preachy. Don't tell me how I should read anything. ESPECIALLY if you christians can't even agree to read it the same way. Ahh. So jesus christ created the earth? I thought he was a hippy jew who died on a cross? Again, of all the religious folk here, there are as many explanations for jesus as god. Wait, contradictory? you just said jesus took the form of man.....to be....jesus? Wow. The mental gymnastics you must go through.... Ahh, so now god is not really "there" but a word used to describe 3 other things.No, the ambiguity is still ever present.

Were your god to say "rather than go through the rigmoral of myself (Jesus) taking on the sin that is forced upon humanity by my (Yahweh's) own poor stewardship I will be a better steward of humanity in the first place. I will also not blame innocent people for the parents actions" the world would be a much better place. Yahweh could make the world a lot nicer place than it is but he chooses not to and then expects idolisation like a narcissist: that's why. Very true. A short cut to less suffering in the world. Again, if he had not invented the concept of sin forgiveness would be not required.Why not just let humans get on with it? Him sticking his big face and arse into people's business seems pointless self aggrandisement.

Precisely (although that does kick the ball to the touchline of "purity" and what that might be - for those so inclinded to cling to the liferaft objection called "subjectivity").Suffice for us to agree that the merest hint of unkindness, selfishness, envy, malice (in their unattractive sense - as commonly agreed upon by man) is "evil".- Either their choice was weighted to ensure they'd choose to eat. Or they had a balanced choice. We can't tell from the text. If balanced then all that follows is just (as commonly agreed upon by man). If not, then not.Remember that it's an assumption you're relying on here. That's a thin-ice objection.- Could you elaborate? What has our not being able to obtain to the standard got to do with evil being evil?- Unfortunately for this position, God has provided an alternative to our having to fulfill his expectation. That alternative is freely available to all men at all times anywhere in the world whether they've heard of God/Christ/the Bible or not.Could you reformulate your objection to take account of this element?- In other words: it must be God who blinks - not man.Surely you'd recoil at the idea of having a stinking, flea-ridden dog take up residence in your house. And wonder at the flea ridden dog insisting you blink. If that flea-infested hound refused the treatment you were offering him you'd show him the door - shaking your head as his accusing you of being a tyrant.- The peanut gallery might be impressed but you've not provided much substance to the "any sane view" view. Most sane folk have no problem with folk receiving the consequences of choice. Most sane folk have no problem seeing grace behind the offer to supply something you've no obligation to supply. Most sane folk understand that evil is objectionable.Most sane folk turn all this sanity on it's head when the issue turns to God the evil is their own and God refuses to blink first. Most sane folk want God to kneel before them. Not the other way around.There's nowt to be done cavediver: God is God, you're the created. You're subject to him - not him to you.

Ahh, so as long as I accept jesus as lord, I can be a complete fucktard? Now I see why you guys are the way you are: no repurcussions.

Correction (and I mean this sincerely).You are currently a complete fucktard - albeit it one in denial (wriggling away from that conclusion by supposing yourself 'not such a bad chap' compared to .......... (insert bottom feeder of choice here)).After you accept Jesus as Lord you'll find your desire to be a complete fucktard interfered with by the one whose taking up residence in you you have accepted. Your being under new management doesn't mean you won't engage in fucktard activity. But you won't be a happy bunny doing so. Not any more.You would not be your own - you would have been bought at a price.Edited by iano, : No reason given.