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Author Topic:   Boy shuns Pledge of Allegiance for Gay Rights
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 181 of 234 (542725)
01-12-2010 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Stile
01-11-2010 1:42 PM


Stile writes:
quote:
What, exactly does this mean?
It means that there is a federal court case concerning a state issue.
In the US, there is the state judicial system and the federal judicial system. States have their own laws and constitutions and in general, the federal system stays out of it. There are some points, however, where federal jurisdiction has a say regarding state matters.
For example, the contract of marriage is governed by the states. Each state has their own laws regarding who can and cannot get married. However, those restrictions must be in accordance with the US Constitution. That is why state restrictions regarding interracial marriage were struck down in the Loving v. Virginia case:
In the 60s, the Loving couple (yes, the last name was "Loving") lived in Virginia which had laws preventing a white and black couple from getting married. They went to Washington, DC (right next door) and got married there because DC did not have such restrictions. When they went back to Virginia, they were arrested.
This resulted in a lawsuit that went to the Supreme Court where, in a unanimous decision, it was decided that restricting marriage on the basis of race was a violation of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution which requires equal treatment under the law.
While states have the ability to regulate certain aspects of marriage such as residency requirements, age restrictions, blood relationships, etc., but restriction on the basis of race is in violation of the Constitution.
In this case, California voted to amend its constitution to define marriage as between only mixed-sex couples. This law is being fought in federal court as a violation of US Constitutional principles.
A similar example happened in the 90s regarding Colorado. They had voted to amend the state constitution to disallow any laws that provide redress for discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. This was taken to the US Supreme Court where it was decided that this was a violation of the 14th Amendment right to equal treatment under the law: Gay people need to be able to petition the court for redress of grievances.
This is in contrast to what happened in Hawaii in the 90s regarding same-sex marriage. At the time, the statutes regarding marriage in Hawaii did not mention the sex of the participants. Too, the Hawaii constitution specifically mentions equality on the basis of sex. Thus, a lawsuit was filed on the basis that the refusal to grant marriage licenses to same-sex couples was a violation of the Hawaii constitution.
The decision of the Hawaii Supreme Court could not be taken to the US Supreme Court because the rights involved were unique to the Hawaii Constitution. There is nothing in the US Constitution regarding equality on the basis of sex. The 14th Amendment simply refers to "citizens." If the HSC had determined that restricting marriage to mixed-sex couples was a violation of the Hawaii Constitution, there is nothing in the US Constitution to deny that and thus, no federal case.
With Prop 8, however, the claim is that the restriction of marriage to mixed-sex couples is a violation of the 14th Amendment.
quote:
If the gay-side wins... then Proposition 8 would be immediately repealed (gays would be able to marry in San Franciso)?
On the most simplistic basis, yes. If the federal court rules that Prop 8 violates the US Constitution, then it will be repealed. Given that the previous ruling by the California Supreme Court was that marriage cannot be denied to same-sex couples, that would mean there would be equality in marriage in California.
quote:
Regardless of which side wins... how likely is it that things will move to the Supreme Court next?
This is why I said "simplistic" above. No matter what the current court rules, it will be appealed to the US Supreme Court.
quote:
Any ballpark figures on how long that would be?
That depends upon other trials. There is also a case in New Jersey regarding same-sex marriage. In 2006, the New Jersey Supreme Court ruled that denial of legal recognition of same-sex partnerships was unconstitutional. They left it to the legislature to decide how to handle it. The New Jersey Legislature then created "civil unions," attempting to do the "separate but equal" route. It seems that the legal contract created for same-sex couples is not equal to marriage (big surprise). Thus, the NJSC is hearing a new case that the NJL dropped the ball and that the only remedy is full marriage.
The US Supreme Court may want to wait for the outcomes of the various trials so that it can combine them all into a single argument. This way, they only have to have a single ruling.
quote:
Or is this court already not really looking at the important aspects?
This is a question of philosophy. Whatever the court says is what they're looking at will be "important." We may consider such questions to be ridiculous, but the court clearly doesn't and wants to hear arguments on those questions.
In the Hawaii case, the question of the raising of children was brought up. However, the State's own witnesses (the State was defending the banning of marriage to same-sex couples) all said that there wasn't any evidence to support the claim of harm to children. The federal court apparently wants to run through it again.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Stile, posted 01-11-2010 1:42 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Stile, posted 01-12-2010 9:20 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 182 of 234 (542726)
01-12-2010 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by New Cat's Eye
01-11-2010 5:23 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
quote:
But they can't refrain from serving blacks....
Because they are engaging in public commerce and as such, are subject to anti-discrimination laws.
quote:
Nor are they a private organization.
Compared to other entities, they are. They are not the government.
quote:
Currently, marriage is defined as a union between one man and one woman (i.e. DOMA). I don't see how that, as defined, must be applied to teh gays.
"Currently, marriage is defined as a union between people of the same race. I don't see how that, as defined, must be applied to interracial couples."
If it's a crap argument when applied to race, why does it suddenly gain legitimacy when applied to sexual orientation?
quote:
And I've seen the arguments with the 9th and 14th amendments and discrimination and all that already. I don't think we need to re-hash them again.
Then why did you bring it up?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-11-2010 5:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-13-2010 11:11 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 183 of 234 (542730)
01-12-2010 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Rrhain
01-12-2010 8:49 AM


Thanks for the input, I was hoping you would chime in as well.
(Timing of going to the Supreme Court) depends upon other trials. There is also a case in New Jersey regarding same-sex marriage.
Interesting.
Thanks for all the details.
The decisions of the higher courts seem to be promising. If everything continues, equal rights may just be "a matter of time" (5 years perhaps). Which sucks for those experiencing the inequality at present... but I suppose this is just the way things must progress within our systems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Rrhain, posted 01-12-2010 8:49 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1276 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 184 of 234 (542736)
01-12-2010 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Stile
01-12-2010 8:33 AM


Re: To the supreme court! One day... maybe...
quote:
So even a court ruling against the ban will not go into effect immediately because it was (obviously) done in the court system and therefore can be appealed.
Actually, I've done a bit more reading on the case, and it's far from clear that a ruling striking Prop 8 would be applicable to all bans on gay marriage nationwide. There are some facts unique to California that could conceivably provide grounds for striking the Prop that would not apply to any other state. In that case, a victory for the plaintiffs would not result in lifting the ban in other states. However, it could be a crack in the dam that might eventually lead to the abolition of all bans.
quote:
I see. In a way, the judge may be looking forward and seeing that nailing down some definitions would be helpful for further clarification of the issues.
Yes, but more than that. Plaintiffs are basing one argument on the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, in particular the Equal Protection Clause. That requires that courts to analyze challenged state actions depending on the nature of the classification that the state is making. The answers to some of the questions that the judge has asked may determine what level of scrutiny the judge will use.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 234 (542752)
01-12-2010 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by subbie
01-12-2010 10:03 AM


Re: To the supreme court! One day... maybe...
Actually, I've done a bit more reading on the case, and it's far from clear that a ruling striking Prop 8 would be applicable to all bans on gay marriage nationwide. There are some facts unique to California that could conceivably provide grounds for striking the Prop that would not apply to any other state. In that case, a victory for the plaintiffs would not result in lifting the ban in other states. However, it could be a crack in the dam that might eventually lead to the abolition of all bans.
I think homosexuals should have the right to marry, but it gets shot down every time it is left to a popular vote. That's also bullshit. The People say they don't want gay marriage and then some activist judge strikes it down.
I really wish the SCOTUS would just allow it once and for all to see if it could reasonably be considered an "inalienable right" to marry whomever you want. I think there is justification to assume such.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 186 of 234 (542754)
01-12-2010 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Hyroglyphx
01-12-2010 11:51 AM


Re: To the supreme court! One day... maybe...
Hyroglyphx writes:
I think homosexuals should have the right to marry, but it gets shot down every time it is left to a popular vote. That's also bullshit.
I know of no human right issue in the past that passed via popular vote. If the populous at large recognizes the said issue as a human right violation, it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-12-2010 11:51 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 187 of 234 (542755)
01-12-2010 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Hyroglyphx
01-12-2010 11:51 AM


Re: To the supreme court! One day... maybe...
Hyroglyphx writes:
I really wish the SCOTUS would just allow it once and for all to see if it could reasonably be considered an "inalienable right" to marry whomever you want. I think there is justification to assume such.
Yes, I think this is what everything is leading up to.
But, these things take time.
Why do they take time? I'm sure there's lots of reasons. But the main one I can see is that these things take time as an attempt to ensure that "non-important" issues don't clutter up the limited time that SCOTUS (or other top courts) have.
That is, if the gay rights issues went right to SCOTUS, immediately, because you and I say it's important... then what's to stop Billy Bob's fight for allowing him to own 10 cows instead of only 8 cows on this farm from going right to SCOTUS, immediately, because he says it's "important"?
SCOTUS can only do so many court rulings every year. There has to be a system in place to make sure that only those that are "really important" get through.
The current system isn't perfect, and (as we see here) it actually slows down some things that should be hurried along. But the system does work to filter out all sorts of un-important things. Which, if they were included, I'm sure gay-rights would be looking somewhere 50-60 years from now instead of maybe 2-5.
I'm not defending the current system, I just understand why it needs to be the way it is. Slow sucks. But without everything in place that makes this slow... in reality it would be even slower (so many other "non-important" issues would also suddenly flood into the system).

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1276 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 188 of 234 (542777)
01-12-2010 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Stile
01-12-2010 12:12 PM


Re: To the supreme court! One day... maybe...
quote:
SCOTUS can only do so many court rulings every year. There has to be a system in place to make sure that only those that are "really important" get through.
It's actually a bit more complicated than that.
Most Justices understand that they need to tread carefully, particularly when ruling on issues where there's a wide public interest with deeply held beliefs going both ways. Obviously, the courts are the least representative branch of government and, for the most part, rely on the other branches to enforce their rulings. While the Constitution tries to insulate the courts from normal political pressures, as a practical matter it's impossible to completely remove the courts from backlash when the public thinks they've gone too far. Google "the switch in time that saved nine" for a real life historical example.
As I mentioned before, the Supreme Court does not have to hear any appeal in this case, if it gets that far. One criterion that it considers when deciding to take a case is if there's a split among the various Circuit Courts of Appeals. This isn't necessarily a wish to dodge a controversial issue, but instead a desire to get the issue more fully framed. To my knowledge, there hasn't yet been been a Circuit Court of Appeals decision declaring gay marriage a fundamental right.
So you are perfectly correct that these things take time. And, given the extreme division in the country about this issue, and what seems to be a general trend toward greater public acceptance of gay marriage, I wouldn't be shocked at all if the Court refuses to hear an appeal here, no matter how it's decided.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Stile, posted 01-12-2010 12:12 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 189 of 234 (542804)
01-12-2010 7:10 PM


I was just looking through some vids on youtube and I found this puppy. Have you ever heard so much bullshit coming from someone on stage before? I haven't. It's great stuff: same sex marriage == 9/11.

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 190 of 234 (542808)
01-12-2010 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Taz
01-12-2010 7:10 PM


He actually said that gay marriage would increase crime, teen pregnancy, and abortion.
Gay marriage.
Abortion.
No wonder they usually don't specify how gay marriage will harm society.
EDIT --
Not to mention he's basing this on the idea that "marriages that are in trouble cause an increase in social ills." Wait...who says that gay marriages will mean that marriages will be in trouble?
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Taz, posted 01-12-2010 7:10 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 191 of 234 (542809)
01-12-2010 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Rahvin
01-12-2010 7:44 PM


Gay people have been blamed for earthquakes, hurricanes, wars, starvation, famine, floods, etc. We can now add 2 more to the list. Pope blames gay people as a threat to creation and a threat to world peace.
You go you, catholics!

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 234 (542811)
01-12-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Taz
01-12-2010 12:06 PM


Re: To the supreme court! One day... maybe...
I know of no human right issue in the past that passed via popular vote. If the populous at large recognizes the said issue as a human right violation, it wouldn't have been an issue in the first place.
Which is why I said that I wish the Supreme Court would review the case to make a determination on whether or not marriage can reasonably be construed as an inalienable right.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4211 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 193 of 234 (542815)
01-12-2010 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Taz
01-12-2010 7:10 PM


Correct it is bullshit. I live in Massachusetts and nothing has hurt conventional marriages here at all. Why shouldn't sex ed include gay lifestyles? I guess the fundies think that ignorance is bliss.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 194 of 234 (542826)
01-13-2010 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Hyroglyphx
01-12-2010 11:51 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:
quote:
The People say they don't want gay marriage and then some activist judge strikes it down.
So Loving v. Virginia was the result of an "activist" court? It was the wrong decision? The unanimous decision should have been the other way? States do have the right to regulate the contract of marriage based upon race?
If it's a crap argument when applied to race, why does it suddenly gain legitimacy when applied to sexual orientation?
quote:
I really wish the SCOTUS would just allow it once and for all to see if it could reasonably be considered an "inalienable right" to marry whomever you want. I think there is justification to assume such.
They already did.
You have read the Loving v. Virginia decision, yes?
Even Scalia wrote that the Lawrence v. Texas decision, along with Romer v. Evans, means that same-sex marriage is a constitutional right.
Have you done any research on this topic at all?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-12-2010 11:51 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 195 of 234 (542827)
01-13-2010 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Hyroglyphx
01-12-2010 8:45 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:
quote:
Which is why I said that I wish the Supreme Court would review the case to make a determination on whether or not marriage can reasonably be construed as an inalienable right.
And they already have.
Multiple times.
It really is a trivial question of getting them to pay attention to their own rulings. The Supreme Court in multiple rulings over the years has said time and again that marriage is the most important relationship a person can make and that it is a fundamental right.
Have you done any research on this subject at all?
Scalia has already said in a legal opinion that Lawrence v. Texas and Romer v. Evans necessarily means that same-sex marriage is a constitutional right. Of course, I have no doubt that he'll try to weasel out of his own decision, but he has already stated that current jurisprudence requires the recognition of same-sex marriage.
It's simply a question of getting them to have the courage of their convictions. That when we said, "liberty and justice for all," we really meant "all."

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-12-2010 8:45 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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