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Author Topic:   What does 'The Gospel' mean to you - in 200 words or less
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


(1)
Message 16 of 93 (539109)
12-13-2009 5:58 AM


The Gospel\; An abomination
I think the Gospels are a testimony to man's imagination, ignorance, and out and out evil.
The 4 anonymous gospels we use are just 4 of over 30 gospels in existence, these were handpicked to serve a specific purpose and have no magical origins.
The gospels clearly show many signs of editing and are rife with historical and textual errors, they were invented to support the messianic claims of a failed preacher called Jesus.
The propaganda and lies that can be found in the gospels is testimony to man's imagination and to the ignorance of the reader who thinks that the events narrated in them in some way resembles the truth. The texts themselves are extremely tedious, horrendously boring, and unhistorical. The obvious attempts by the unknown authors to try and make Jesus' life fit OT prophecy is laughable at best, the many prophecies ripped out of context, the 'prophecies' which are not even prophecies that were invented, and the fictional stories (e.g. Brababbas episode) have a more sinister side to them.
The authors of the Gospel probably had no idea of the horrors that their fairy tales would have on mankind, I think if they knew then they would not have written the majority of the texts.
The gospel has not been a blessing on mankind, it has, in fact, been an abomination. The lies made up by the authors of the gospel are responsible for some of the most horrific events in human history. The Jewish nation for example has been persecuted for centuries for rejecting the failed messiah Jesus. If people would take the time to study the Bible and the history of the times and places it was written in then they would realise that the Jews were quite correct in rejecting Jesus as He fulfilled no messianic prophecies and He was clearly not the Messiah that the Jews were and still are waiting on. The determination of the gospel writers to make the Jewish people into scapegoats for their failed messiah has resulted in many millions of these people being murdered. Of course there are many millions of other peoples who have been slaughtered in the name of Jesus and that just adds to the ignorance of the followers of the Gospel.
Then we come to ignorance. I think that when these books were written then the contents were not much different to the contents of other religions, but in this day and age when so much of the Bible has been demonstrated to be untrue and with the rise of the sciences there really is no excuse for viewing the Gospel as anything other than ancient propagana, camp fire tales, and legends.
The Gospel is amazing when you are 5 years old, but for adults to believe it is just ignorance and desperation.
Time to put the Gospel on the shelf of fiction where it belongs.

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2009 12:51 AM Brian has replied
 Message 76 by Iblis, posted 12-23-2009 4:01 PM Brian has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 17 of 93 (539176)
12-13-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
11-11-2009 9:31 PM


good news
Poor Jesus! If he had known how great an authority was to be projected upon him, he would never have said a word. His literary image in the Gospels has, through centuries of homage, become far more of an idol than anything graven in wood or stone, so that today the most genuinely reverent act of worship is to destroy that image. In his own words, "It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Paraclete [the Holy Spirit] cannot come unto you." Or, as the angel said to the disciples who came looking for the body of Jesus in the tomb, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here. He is risen and has gone before you . . . ." But Christian piety does not let him go away, and continues to seek the living Christ in the dead letter of the historical record. As he said to the Jews, "You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life."
The Crucifixion gives eternal life because it is the giving up of God as an object to be possessed, known, and held to for one's own safety, "for he that would save his soul shall lose it." To cling to Jesus is therefore to worship a Christ uncrucified, an idol instead of the living God.
-- Alan Watts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 11-11-2009 9:31 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jaywill, posted 12-14-2009 4:44 PM Iblis has replied
 Message 20 by jaywill, posted 12-14-2009 10:40 PM Iblis has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 18 of 93 (539284)
12-14-2009 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Iblis
12-13-2009 1:54 PM


Re: good news
The Crucifixion gives eternal life because it is the giving up of God as an object to be possessed, known, and held to for one's own safety, "for he that would save his soul shall lose it." To cling to Jesus is therefore to worship a Christ uncrucified, an idol instead of the living God.
I use to read Allen Watts when I was exploring Zen. I am surprised now that his understanding of the Christian Gospel is so off.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Iblis, posted 12-13-2009 1:54 PM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Iblis, posted 12-14-2009 8:23 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 19 of 93 (539303)
12-14-2009 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jaywill
12-14-2009 4:44 PM


Re: good news
Is he wrong that the Crucifixion represents an end to idolatry? (Sin, death)
Or wrong that the Resurrection represents a beginning for direct access? (Life, love)
Or just "wrong" in the sense that you still have some idols that you don't want to give up, and he's calling you on it?
Give up your fixed ideas, man, or in due time they will have to be burned out of you ....
Hebrews 10:31 writes:
[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Edited by Iblis, : have you read the King in Yellow?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jaywill, posted 12-14-2009 4:44 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 20 of 93 (539311)
12-14-2009 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Iblis
12-13-2009 1:54 PM


Re: good news
Poor Jesus! If he had known how great an authority was to be projected upon him, he would never have said a word.
First off, Jesus taught us that the Father invested this authority in Him. We did not invest it in Him. The Father did:
"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and disciple all nations, ..." (Matt. 28:18,19)
God "has made Him both Lord and Christ." God has given all authority to the Son. Why does Allen Watts complain that we disciples did so?
These are perculiar "crocodile tears" shed by an anti-christ teacher.
First why would Jesus NOT know what was to follow Him? He told us very much of both the positive and the negative things which were to follow His earthly ministry. I don't know why Allen Watts should think Christ is shocked by anything that has happened since His earthly ministry.
Of course the sentiment expressed by Watts is that Christ does not know because Christ is not alive. Since Allen Watts has not even believed in the resurrection of Christ why should we trust him to be a able interpreter of the New Testament?
He's out to oppose it, and that with hypocritical crocodile tears of empathy for the "dead" Son of God.
His literary image in the Gospels has, through centuries of homage, become far more of an idol than anything graven in wood or stone, so that today the most genuinely reverent act of worship is to destroy that image.
Is there idolatry related to Jesus? Yes there is. Idols of in pictures, crosses, icons have filled both Roman Cathocism, Greek Orthodoxy, and Protestantism.
Not all believers in Christ have idols. You wouldn't find any idols in a Brethren Assembly. You would not find any idols in a Church of Christ Disciples. You would not find idols or icons in a Quaker Friends Meeting of the more biblical branch of Quakerism. There are thousands of meeting halls of the local churches which have no pictures, no crosses, no idols, no relics.
I have never had a cross or a "picture of Jesus" in my home as a Christian for over 30 years. I know thousands of believers who would never have a so-called picture of Jesus, let alone an idol.
So while Watts is not wrong, a broad generalization would be prejudicial.
I could just as easily make a very broad general statement about the idols of Buddha in Buddhism to cast dispersions on all practitioners of Zen Buddhism.
In his own words, "It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Paraclete [the Holy Spirit] cannot come unto you."
Here I agree that this is a very important passage. Of course above Watts seems to not recognize that Christ is resurrected, alive, and available. His concept is not that of the New Testament which is that Christ in resurrection became a life giving Spirit:
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Since the New Testament says "And the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) it teaches that the resurrected Christ can enter into man as the "Another Comforter" - the Paraclete. He is Christ in His pneumatic form.
I have doubts that this is Watt's concept because above he laments that Jesus would not have said anything if He were today alive. But the Paraclete stresses absolutetly that Jesus Christ is present, available, knowable, and alive.
After all the coming of the Comforter as the Spirit of reality was Christ's coming:
" ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans, I am coming to you." (See John 14:17,18)
The "He" of verse 17 suddenly becomes the "I" of verse 18. "He" the Spirit of reality is to come is Chriat coming and not leaving them as orphans - "I am coming to you".
Is this what Allen Watts is teaching ? No I don't believe it is. Christ to him is dead and gone. He may give lip service to the Paraclete. But his concept is that whatever this Paraclete is it is not Christ Who resurrected from the dead.
Watt's Christ is dead and oblivious to the developments, positive and negative, of church history.
Or, as the angel said to the disciples who came looking for the body of Jesus in the tomb, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here. He is risen and has gone before you . . . ." But Christian piety does not let him go away, and continues to seek the living Christ
Christ Himself said that He was living forever and ever:
"Do not fear, I am the First and the Last and the living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades" (Rev. 1:18)
So we should seek the living One.
in the dead letter of the historical record. As he said to the Jews, "You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life."
Here Watts has a point that Christians can be distracted from the living Christ by the dead letter apart from the Spirit.
But he's not to be trusted to help remedy that situation because he doesn't really believe that Christ is alive today. He said himself, if Jesus knew this or that.
He is alive and He knows all. Watt's criticism is a little truth with some lie mixed in with it. The true part is a attractive hook. Be careful for the lie hidden in there.
This is like the serpent in Genesis: "You will not surely die, for God knows that day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be as gods knowing good and evil".
Well, it is true that their eyes would be opened knmowing good and evil. That part is true. But that truth is a concealing cloke to hide the damnable lie which is the main cargo - "You will not surely die."
So Watts laments "Christians are searching the dead letter of the Bible and missing the living Christ".
Sounds good Allen. But at the same time you teach that Christ is dead and oblivious anyway. Sure you do. That's why you came to replace the Son of God with Zen Buddhism. Right ?
The Crucifixion gives eternal life because it is the giving up of God as an object to be possessed,
Actually it is the resurrection that the New Testament mostly stresses gives eternal life:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope thrugh the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Pet. 1:3)
The believers were regenerated (re-born) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
I appreciate the cross and the crucifixion for its redemptive work and terminating work. But Jesus said "Because I live you shall live also." The emphasis here is that because He will rise in resurrection the disciples will live with Him in that realm of divine life.
It may not be a major objection. But if Watts wants to teach a crucifixion without a resurrection he is teaching a heresy and cannot be trusted as an interpreter of the New Testament Gospel.
known, and held to for one's own safety, "for he that would save his soul shall lose it." To cling to Jesus is therefore to worship a Christ uncrucified, an
I will accept Watt's encouragement that the Christian needs to go beyond the dead letter to touch the living Spirit of the resurrected Christ.
But I don't think Watt's real intention is to experience Christ. For Watts Christ is gone and Zen Buddhism is needed to replace Him. He has some formal and unvital Christianity to point to to bolster his point. I cannot deny that.
But the whole explanation of Watts comes accross as the crocodile tears of one out to replace Christ with something OTHER than Christ. Something OTHER than Christ is actually anti-Christ.
It is cloaked cleverly. As a wolf in sheep's clothing. I am much more impressed by genuine NT teachers who tell us that all that Christ is and has accomplished is ours in the Holy Spirit. The cross is there. The resurrection power is there. The Person is there for "And the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17).
No one who believes that Jesus is dead and gone can help people to live by the Spirit of Christ or derive spiritual life from the Bible.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Iblis, posted 12-13-2009 1:54 PM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Iblis, posted 12-14-2009 11:43 PM jaywill has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 21 of 93 (539312)
12-14-2009 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jaywill
12-14-2009 10:40 PM


Re: good news
There are thousands of meeting halls of the local churches which have no pictures, no crosses, no idols, no relics.
They have Bibles, don't they? And if we use those Bibles as toilet paper, they get angry on a whole different scale than they would if we used an expensive encyclopedia or a valuable mink coat. Not even on the order of, exponentially greater.
They have Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, don't they? And let's talk about Daystar and the Blended Brethren, if we are going to talk.
And they have Jesus. Regardless of what else he might have been, he was a marginal Jew with clear symptoms of hebephrenia, preaching easily recognizable tenets of theraveda, and working with other therapeutes like John in an environment absolutely appropriate for such work. How does that make you feeel? Anything that I can tell the truth about, and thereby make people blind angry, is an idol.
Blatant idolatry. "God is this, and he isn't that". Outright denial of the essence of Transcendence. Even though the scriptures that you claim to believe and in fact do worship, are quite plain and clear about the matter.
Isaiah 45:6,7 writes:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
As for Zen, you are sadly mistaken if you think it is a replacement for anything you think you already have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jaywill, posted 12-14-2009 10:40 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2009 7:32 AM Iblis has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 22 of 93 (539313)
12-14-2009 11:49 PM


good news
Zen followers may have sets of doctrines, but they have them on their own account, and for their own benefit; they do not owe the fact to Zen. Therefore, there are in Zen no sacred books or dogmatic tenets, nor are there any symbolic formulae through which an access might be gained into the signification of Zen. If I am asked, then, what Zen teaches, I would answer, Zen teaches nothing. Whatever teachings there are in Zen, they come out of one's own mind. We teach ourselves; Zen merely points the way. Unless this pointing is teaching, there is certainly nothing in Zen purposely set up as its cardinal doctrines or its fundamental philosophy.
Zen claims to be Buddhism, but all the Buddhist teachings as propounded in the sutras and shastras are treated by Zen as mere waste paper whose utility consists in wiping off the dirt of intellect and nothing more.
-- D T Suzuki

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 23 of 93 (539316)
12-15-2009 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Brian
12-13-2009 5:58 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Brian writes:
they were invented to support the messianic claims of a failed preacher called Jesus.
Could you provide me with an example of how Jesus was a failed preacher?
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 12-13-2009 5:58 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Peg, posted 12-15-2009 5:12 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 12-15-2009 1:26 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 24 of 93 (539326)
12-15-2009 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2009 12:51 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
EMA writes:
Could you provide me with an example of how Jesus was a failed preacher?
LOL
are you sure you want to get your answer from Brian???
Judaism - 14 million
Christianity - 2.1 billion
Failed???
I dont think so.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2009 12:51 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2009 10:28 AM Peg has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 25 of 93 (539342)
12-15-2009 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Iblis
12-14-2009 11:43 PM


Re: good news
They have Bibles, don't they?
Why shouldn't we have Bibles. That is where the word of God can be found.
As long as we take in the Bible with a prayerful spirit to touch the living Spirit the Bible is a tremendous help.
Are you trying to make an accusation that the Bible is venerated as an physical object of worship? Granted, I was at a Coptic meeting in which everyone present was suppose to kiss the Bible as it was being passed around. I didn't do it as a visitor.
We read the Bible, study the Bible, pray with and over the words of the Bible, and sing passages from the Bible. Why not ? We find the living God conveyed to us in the words of the Bible.
And if we use those Bibles as toilet paper, they get angry on a whole different scale than they would if we used an expensive encyclopedia or a valuable mink coat. Not even on the order of, exponentially greater.
Whatever you think it will accomplish for you to use the pages of the Bible as toilet paper, that is your hangup.
You are going out of your way to be offensive. After you get over the initial thrill of being offensive, consider reading this wonderful Bible with a praying heart.
Sorry if I am not shocked.
They have Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, don't they? And let's talk about Daystar and the Blended Brethren, if we are going to talk.
Nee and Lee are two brothers among many Christian teachers which have helped many people get into the Bible.
Do you have something specific to object to or are you just wanting to throw dust in the air ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Iblis, posted 12-14-2009 11:43 PM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Iblis, posted 12-15-2009 8:18 PM jaywill has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 26 of 93 (539348)
12-15-2009 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peg
12-15-2009 5:12 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Peg writes:
LOL
are you sure you want to get your answer from Brian???
Judaism - 14 million
Christianity - 2.1 billion
Failed???
I dont think so.
Yes, I am sure I want my answer from Brian. Please provide me with an example of how Jesus is a FAILED preacher?
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Peg, posted 12-15-2009 5:12 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 12-15-2009 10:32 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 27 of 93 (539350)
12-15-2009 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2009 10:28 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
EMA writes:
Ill provide the statement again, please provide me with an example of how Jesus should be considered a failed preacher. Peg, since you seem to be implying something here, make your point and quit beating around the bush.
Actually, Peg was trying to demonstrate Jesus was not a failed preacher, since so many "follow" his preachings. Though how the jews are connected to this I fail to see.

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2009 10:28 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2009 10:34 AM Huntard has not replied
 Message 29 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2009 10:38 AM Huntard has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 28 of 93 (539351)
12-15-2009 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Huntard
12-15-2009 10:32 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Actually, Peg was trying to demonstrate Jesus was not a failed preacher, since so many "follow" his preachings. Though how the jews are connected to this I fail to see.
I know that now and that is what I just saw after I read it again, sorry Peg
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 12-15-2009 10:32 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 29 of 93 (539352)
12-15-2009 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Huntard
12-15-2009 10:32 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Actually, Peg was trying to demonstrate Jesus was not a failed preacher, since so many "follow" his preachings. Though how the jews are connected to this I fail to see.
Perhaps you could provide an example while we are waiting on Brian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Huntard, posted 12-15-2009 10:32 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Huntard, posted 12-15-2009 10:52 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 30 of 93 (539355)
12-15-2009 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dawn Bertot
12-15-2009 10:38 AM


Re: The Gospel\; An abomination
Well, he was arrested, betrayed by his own people and put to death. I wouldn't call that a great succes....

I hunt for the truth
I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2009 10:38 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-15-2009 11:24 AM Huntard has replied
 Message 54 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 4:41 AM Huntard has replied

  
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