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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Really Suffer?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 31 of 73 (535111)
11-12-2009 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2009 11:00 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Hyroglyphx writes:
Please support this assertion and show me where the animals died around them before the Fall of Man.
Animals are not conscious of God and therefore they cannot break any of God laws or IOW, they cannot sin.
What was the consequence of sin for adam and eve?
Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned"
As animals cannot sin, they must die for another reason.
Hyroglyphx writes:
True or not true: The point of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil allowed them to understand right from wrong?
Not true. The tree symbolized Gods right to decide for his creatures what is good and what is bad for them. When A&E took of this fruit, they were turning their backs on their heavenly Father and rejecting his divine guidance and perfect will.
According to God, what is good is to obey,
What is bad is to disobey.
this is why the tree was called the 'tree of knowledge of good and bad'
When they chose to eat from it, thus disobeying God, they had knowledge of what God viewed as bad.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Jesus plain as day is saying that he has existed long before mankind. He did not simply begin to exist when Mary conceived. He had stated several times that he's "not of this world," and made other remarks that he's existed either as God or with God.
That's biblical.
So he is not just a man, as you allege.
thats exactly right...you assert though that Jesus is the Almighty God. Yes Jesus existed in heaven before he became a man on earth. He is Gods only begotten son as i have repeatedly stated.
He had a prehuman existance, With God his father...and with millions of other angels in heaven.
Hyroglyphx writes:
My initial point still stands that no one is perfect, and it is clear that God intended that so he could offer salvation. That's the whole point of salvation, because man by his very nature cannot stop sinning.
this makes no sense at all! why offer salvation for something that is unsavlagable?
If we were made to do what God viewed as bad, then there would be no need to offer salvation. And what would the salvation entail if were were going to sin whether we were saved or not???
To say that humans are incapable of remaining sin free is being totally defeatist. We are capable of whatever we put our mind and heart to. You probably have never murdered anyone because you view it as bad. If you viewed as bad, all the things that God views as bad, then you are capable of not sinning.
Its just a matter of changing our opinions and views and bringing them in harmony with Gods. This is possible with his salvation.
Hyroglyphx writes:
That verse where God is speaking is about the creation of man. How can he be speaking to a man long before he created man?
I didnt say he was speaking to a man. He was speaking to his Son, Jesus Christ who lived as an angelic spirit with God before he was a man.
Hyroglyphx writes:
So you say, but I am backing up my assertions with scriptures. The concept of the trinity may be complete malarky (which it probably is), but there is good reason why people assume the trinity from scripture.
The scriptures do not prove a trinity exists. Im not going to argue about a church dogma that is purely the fabrication of the church. It has nothing to do with scripture as even their own encyclopaedias attest.
Hyroglyphx writes:
If that is so then the bible is not infallible, is it? It can be tampered with, and if that is the case it opens the door to question the entire veracity of it.
not at all for the reason that the ancient manuscripts have not changed. If it werent for the ancient manuscripts remaining in tact, perhaps it would not be known that John 1:1 says that 'the Word was A god' who was 'with God in the beginning'
hyroglyphx writes:
My question was he wanted it this way at all when it is very clear that the heavenly realm is the ultimate goal.
heaven is not the ultimate goal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2009 11:00 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-13-2009 9:26 AM Peg has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 73 (535164)
11-13-2009 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Peg
11-12-2009 10:03 PM


Re: Damning evidence
Animals are not conscious of God and therefore they cannot break any of God laws or IOW, they cannot sin.
You stated that A&E had a concept of death because animals were dying all around them. That is not supported biblically. So my point still stands that warning man that they would die really means nothing, not to mention they had no concept of right or wrong before they ate of the fruit. That's setting them up for failure.
The tree symbolized Gods right to decide for his creatures what is good and what is bad for them. When A&E took of this fruit, they were turning their backs on their heavenly Father and rejecting his divine guidance and perfect will.
Is it not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Yes, it is. God said, don't eat it or you will surely die. They ate from it and what happened? Immediately they realized good and bad, knowing well after the fact that they had gone against God's commandments, and after the fact realizing the transgression.
When they chose to eat from it, thus disobeying God, they had knowledge of what God viewed as bad.
Yes, understood, but you cannot know that disobedience is bad BEFORE you eat of it, right? It was only after that they felt the sting of conscience and attempted to hide from God.
thats exactly right...you assert though that Jesus is the Almighty God. Yes Jesus existed in heaven before he became a man on earth. He is Gods only begotten son as i have repeatedly stated.
The Trinity is not a hill to die on as it is irrelevant to the greater point I am making. The point of the matter is that he is more than mere human. Jesus has far more of God's influence, being in his direct presence from eternity. So how much can he really suffer and how much of a sacrifice was it comparatively to humans without all that foreknowledge?
this makes no sense at all! why offer salvation for something that is unsavlagable?
It isn't unsalvageable, according to the bible. Follow the sequence of events that led us to this current discussion. You stated that Jesus is just a regular guy, and that he was sinless proves that man can also be sinless.
But that is not so, and it nullifies the entire reason for the need of Jesus. The reason for Jesus' execution on the cross was to save man because man could not save himself. If there is one central theme to summarize the entirety of the gospel, it would be that.
To say that humans are incapable of remaining sin free is being totally defeatist. We are capable of whatever we put our mind and heart to.
If you can name me one human being, other than Jesus, who is completely sinless, please let the world know.
"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. ALL have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is NO ONE who does good, not even one."
"ALL have fallen short of the glory of God..."
Does none of that ring a bell?
The scriptures do not prove a trinity exists. Im not going to argue about a church dogma that is purely the fabrication of the church. It has nothing to do with scripture as even their own encyclopaedias attest.
As I said earlier, I'm not really trying to prove the trinity (though I do believe there is a scriptural basis for it). My point is that Jesus is not a mere man, never has been, never will be. That being the case in the matter makes it questionable how much he is able to suffer and how much he really gave to mankind.
not at all for the reason that the ancient manuscripts have not changed. If it werent for the ancient manuscripts remaining in tact, perhaps it would not be known that John 1:1 says that 'the Word was A god' who was 'with God in the beginning'
So show me how this was a later insertion.
heaven is not the ultimate goal.
Then why is so much emphasis placed on the "things from above," and why we are asked to be "saved," etc?

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Peg, posted 11-12-2009 10:03 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 11-14-2009 6:29 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 33 of 73 (535262)
11-14-2009 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hyroglyphx
11-13-2009 9:26 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Hyroglyphx writes:
You stated that A&E had a concept of death because animals were dying all around them. That is not supported biblically.
the bible also does not say that God ever imposed a restriction on the animals, or that he told them what would happen if they disobeyed. The bible is a book about mankind...not animal kind. It was only to man that God imposed the restriction so why would we assume that the command also went out to animals?
Hyrodglyphx writes:
but you cannot know that disobedience is bad BEFORE you eat of it, right?
You can if you know what the consequences will be.
I think he suffered greatly with that knowledge because he knew just how much was resting on his shoulders. If he failed, the ramifications would have been severe, mankind may have been doomed. Actually if you read the account about him the night before his death, we are told that his sweat became drops of blood.
This is an actual condition of what happens so some people when they are under intense stress. Its called Forbidden.
Luke 22:44 But getting into an agony he continued praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.
Even though he did have a prehuman existence, this did not make him stronger then any other human. He was still born in flesh and blood and felt pain like everyone else.
Hyroglyphx writes:
So show me how this [trinity] was a later insertion.
It was actually Constantine, a non christian, who proposed the teaching. The corrup church adopted the idea because they wanted Constantine to keep christianity's status favorable. Many old time christians opposed the teaching and it led the bishops to declare any who opposed their 'offical' teachings as heretics. Many christians were cut off from the church if they rejected this new idea.
quote:
Encyclopdia Britannica states about the Council: Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed ... the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ ... Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Then why is so much emphasis placed on the "things from above," and why we are asked to be "saved," etc?
Because the 'things from above' are spiritual things. And if one wants to be saved, they must know 'How' and 'Why' they need to be saved.
Colosians 3:1-2 "Go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Keep your minds fixed on the things above, not on the things upon the earth."
what are things above? They are things pertaining to God and his Son Jesus. Keeping ones mind fixed on those things does not mean that is where mankind is heading. It just means to keep your mind on spiritual things. It means to know about God, to know about Jesus to know about the kingdom and what it will do. Most importantly, to know what WE must do to be a part of it.
If you look at Jesus words from the Sermon on the Mount, you'll see that he was holding out an earthly hope
In this verse, he's quoting from Psalm 37...
Matt. 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.
Psalm 37:11"But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."
And this is backed up by the fact that the jews also held to an earthly hope under the messianic kingdom
quote:
The Jewish Encyclopedia, as follows: . . . the Prophets developed the hope of an ideal Messianic future through the reign of a son of the house of Davidthe golden age of paradisiacal bliss . . . It would come in the form of a world of perfect peace and harmony among all creatures, the angelic state of man before his sin (Isa. xi. 1-10, lxv. 17-25: ‘new heavens and a new earth’). . . . ‘the conversion of all creatures to become one single band to do God’s will’ is the foremost object of Israel’s Messianic hope; only the removal of ‘the kingdom of violence’ must precede the establishment of God’s kingdom. . . . The Perso-Babylonian world-year of twelve millenniums, however, was transformed in Jewish eschatology [study of the ultimate destiny of mankind and the world] into a world-week of seven millenniums corresponding with the week of Creation, the verse ‘A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday’ (Ps. xc. 5 [A.V.4]) having suggested the idea that the present world of toil (‘‘olam ha-zeh’) is to be followed by a Sabbatical millennium, ‘the world to come’ (‘‘olam ha-ba′’ ...).Vol. 5, pages 209-211. (Italics ours)
This is the whole purpose of Jesus sacrifice...it was to give mankind the opportunity to rid itself of the effects of sin and death and eventually get mankind back to a condition where they can be reconciled to God again.
Paul explains this perfectly at 1Corinthians 15:24-28:
Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For God ‘subjected all things under his feet.’...But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Edited by Peg, : fixed quote box
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-13-2009 9:26 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-15-2009 10:58 AM Peg has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 73 (535381)
11-15-2009 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Peg
11-14-2009 6:29 AM


Re: Damning evidence
the bible also does not say that God ever imposed a restriction on the animals, or that he told them what would happen if they disobeyed. The bible is a book about mankind...not animal kind. It was only to man that God imposed the restriction so why would we assume that the command also went out to animals?
Because the bible says that "death" entered in to the WORLD when A&E ate of the fruit. There are also strong allusions that God never intended for man to eat animals found in Genesis and also in Isaiah when Jesus perfects the world, where the lion lays down with the lamb. Essentially a world where nothing dies.
You can if you know what the consequences will be.
Then what is the point of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
I think he suffered greatly with that knowledge because he knew just how much was resting on his shoulders. If he failed, the ramifications would have been severe, mankind may have been doomed. Actually if you read the account about him the night before his death, we are told that his sweat became drops of blood.
Yes, but could it have been worse than any of the other thousands of people in human history who died on the cross, especially since he was going back to be with the Lord? That is the question.
Even though he did have a prehuman existence, this did not make him stronger then any other human.
Oh, come on now... No advantage? The mere fact that he either is God or existed with God as the chosen messiah is the greatest advantage of all.
quote:
So show me how this [trinity] was a later insertion.
  —hyroglyphx
It was actually Constantine, a non christian, who proposed the teaching.
Constantine was a Christian, just not a very good one.
The corrup church adopted the idea because they wanted Constantine to keep christianity's status favorable. Many old time christians opposed the teaching and it led the bishops to declare any who opposed their 'offical' teachings as heretics. Many christians were cut off from the church if they rejected this new idea.
This is completely irrelevant to the fact that it is found within the text of the bible itself, which I have shown. What Constantine have to do with what Jesus said about himself and what Paul claimed about Jesus?
Because the 'things from above' are spiritual things. And if one wants to be saved, they must know 'How' and 'Why' they need to be saved.
Right, and so there is a huge emphasis on it. You are making my point for me.
This is the whole purpose of Jesus sacrifice...it was to give mankind the opportunity to rid itself of the effects of sin and death and eventually get mankind back to a condition where they can be reconciled to God again.
Yes, so they can be with God in heaven and not burn in hell for all eternity because man cannot do it on his own.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 11-14-2009 6:29 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Peg, posted 11-16-2009 3:55 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 35 of 73 (535453)
11-16-2009 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Hyroglyphx
11-15-2009 10:58 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Hyroglyphx writes:
Because the bible says that "death" entered in to the WORLD when A&E ate of the fruit.
That verse you are quoting is from Romans 5:12 which says:
Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.
the 'world' here is the world of mankind. We are the world...and Paul says "Thus death spread to all 'MEN' because they had all sinned"
he doesnt say anything about animals here.
Hyroglypxh writes:
There are also strong allusions that God never intended for man to eat animals found in Genesis and also in Isaiah when Jesus perfects the world, where the lion lays down with the lamb. Essentially a world where nothing dies.
I agree that this is true. The first instance of God giving permission for man to eat animals is when Noah comes out of the ARk. He gives Noah permission to eat animals so long as Noah acknowleged that the life of the animal belonged to God. Noah was instructed to pour the blood into the earth in respect for the life of the animal.
But this doesnt mean that before A&E they did not die. Nor does it mean that in the prophecies about the repaired earth, will nothing die. Yes the lamb will reside with the lion...but what do these represent? could they be speaking allegorically? The hebrew writers called some people 'lions' and like Jesus, they called some people 'sheep'
If the lion and the sheep reside together without doing harm, it could mean that lion like people will not harm the sheeplike people. Or IOW, people of all sorts will be at peace and live in peace together.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Then what is the point of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
the point of the tree was twofold.
1. It gave A&E a choice. Without the tree, there would have been no free will because there would have been no way to disobey God.
2. it was also a way for God to demonstrate his rulership in the garden. It represented his right to rule mankind. It stood like the white house does in washington...it is a symbol of authority.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Yes, but could it have been worse than any of the other thousands of people in human history who died on the cross, especially since he was going back to be with the Lord? That is the question.
He suffered as much as anyone else did...the real question for him though is 'was it worth it'?
Hyroglyphx writes:
Constantine was a Christian, just not a very good one.
did you realise that he did not get baptized until he was on his deathbed?
I dont think he was a christian at all...he was a political ruler who used the church to his own ends the same way that Hitler did.
HyroglyphxThis is completely irrelevant to the fact that it is found within the text of the bible itself, which I have shown. What Constantine have to do with what Jesus said about himself and what Paul claimed about Jesus?
its not found within the text of the bible at all. Those scriptures do not say Jesus is God. If you read the bible without the knowlege you have of churh teaching, you wouldnt read those ideas into those verses....its impossible.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Right, and so there is a huge emphasis on it. You are making my point for me.
well the bible is a book from God, about God...so you would expect it to say alot about the subject of God.
It doesnt mean though that everyone has to get into heaven and thats why it speaks about God.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Yes, so they can be with God in heaven and not burn in hell for all eternity because man cannot do it on his own.
No,
its so they can live forever on earth under the righteous rulerhsip of Gods kingdom....a kingdom for the earth
Matthew 6:10"Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth"
Its so that they can be rid of the effects of death and sin
Revelation 21:4 ...and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away"
And its so mankind can experience a peace they have never known.
Psalm 46:9 [God] is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth."
Its so all those who have ever died can be resurrected to life on earth and have a 2nd chance of living in a perfect world.
John 5:28-29 All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-15-2009 10:58 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-16-2009 4:21 PM Peg has replied
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-17-2009 8:54 AM Peg has replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4887 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 36 of 73 (535543)
11-16-2009 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Peg
11-16-2009 3:55 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
Hyroglypxh writes:
There are also strong allusions that God never intended for man to eat animals found in Genesis and also in Isaiah when Jesus perfects the world, where the lion lays down with the lamb. Essentially a world where nothing dies.
I agree that this is true. The first instance of God giving permission for man to eat animals is when Noah comes out of the ARk. He gives Noah permission to eat animals so long as Noah acknowleged that the life of the animal belonged to God. Noah was instructed to pour the blood into the earth in respect for the life of the animal.
But this doesnt mean that before A&E they did not die. Nor does it mean that in the prophecies about the repaired earth, will nothing die. Yes the lamb will reside with the lion...but what do these represent? could they be speaking allegorically? The hebrew writers called some people 'lions' and like Jesus, they called some people 'sheep'
If the lion and the sheep reside together without doing harm, it could mean that lion like people will not harm the sheeplike people. Or IOW, people of all sorts will be at peace and live in peace together.
Yes, that is very well what it could mean, but how? Is there some kind of hidden definition of "allegory" that us others don't know about. If it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible. How do tell between an "allegory" and a "real" event?
Peg writes:
Hyroglyphx writes:
Then what is the point of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
the point of the tree was twofold.
1. It gave A&E a choice. Without the tree, there would have been no free will because there would have been no way to disobey God.
Yes, but God could have made the consequences of disobeying less severe. He could have just made the serpent tempt them into eating an apple instead of an orange and then punished them by removing the orange tree (it was their favorite... ;(). The way you say it seems as if God wanted A&E to disobey.
Peg writes:
2. it was also a way for God to demonstrate his rulership in the garden. It represented his right to rule mankind. It stood like the white house does in washington...it is a symbol of authority.
- Why does God have the right to rule us if we sentient beings? I didn't choose him.
- Why did God need to demonstrate his authority? Was the that small?
- So if I decided to take a pillow from the couch of the White House instead of the window hanging, I would be exiled and sentenced to death?
Peg writes:
Hyroglyphx writes:
Yes, but could it have been worse than any of the other thousands of people in human history who died on the cross, especially since he was going back to be with the Lord? That is the question.
He suffered as much as anyone else did...the real question for him though is 'was it worth it'?
The worth does not mean much in this discussion, Peg. If anything, you should feel worse for those that weren't Jesus, for they had nothing to die for.
It is better to die with purpose than to die outcast and alone, cast out and broken. I presume Jesus was none of those things?
Peg writes:
Hyroglyphx writes:
Constantine was a Christian, just not a very good one.
did you realise that he did not get baptized until he was on his deathbed?
I dont think he was a christian at all...he was a political ruler who used the church to his own ends the same way that Hitler did.
Does it matter when he got baptized? Some churches today don't even require baptism. As for politics, he reportedly turned to Christianity after seeing a "great cross in the sky" that gave him a great victory. Yeah, doesn't sound like manipulative politics, maybe a little more like....
Faith?
As per Hitler...
No webpage found at provided URL: http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
I'm going to skip a couple of points here, sorry...
Peg writes:
Hyroglyphx writes:
Yes, so they can be with God in heaven and not burn in hell for all eternity because man cannot do it on his own.
No,
its so they can live forever on earth under the righteous rulerhsip of Gods kingdom....a kingdom for the earth
Matthew 6:10 "Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth"
Its so that they can be rid of the effects of death and sin
Revelation 21:4 ...and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away"
And its so mankind can experience a peace they have never known.
Psalm 46:9 [God] is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth."
Its so all those who have ever died can be resurrected to life on earth and have a 2nd chance of living in a perfect world.
John 5:28-29 All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
Well than, how do you explain the pretty inconspicuous 2 ton elephant in the room?
If you haven't guessed by now, it's the doctrine of Hell
"So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
--The Bible, Matthew 13:40-50 (KJV)
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."
--The Bible, Revelation 14:10-11 (KJV)
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
I could go on, but I won't.
T&U

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Stephen Roberts
I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in
- Dan Foutes
"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Peg, posted 11-16-2009 3:55 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 11-16-2009 6:04 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 37 of 73 (535553)
11-16-2009 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Teapots&unicorns
11-16-2009 4:21 PM


Re: Damning evidence
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Yes, that is very well what it could mean, but how? Is there some kind of hidden definition of "allegory" that us others don't know about. If it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible. How do tell between an "allegory" and a "real" event?
most of the Scriptural references to the lion are figurative, or illustrative. The entire nation of Israel was prophetically compared to lions because of a lions invincibility and courage.
Jesus called his followers his 'sheep' and the apostles called Jesus the 'lamb' of God
Teaposts&uncorns writes:
The way you say it seems as if God wanted A&E to disobey
im not trying to make it sound that way. What i mean is that If God did not provide a law in the garden, then they would have had no way to disobey and thus they would have had no choice....IOW they would not have had a way to express their free will.
Teaposts&unicorns writes:
Why does God have the right to rule us if we sentient beings?
Revelation 4:11 "...because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created."
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Why did God need to demonstrate his authority?
because he is a God of order... you cant have order without an authority. Every human government knows this. Every family head knows this.
Teapots&unicorns writes:
It is better to die with purpose than to die outcast and alone, cast out and broken. I presume Jesus was none of those things?
is it acceptable to go to prison for a crime you didnt commit knowing that you are innocent?
Jesus was sinless and therefore his death was a complete and utter travesty of justice.
And as for 'hell' its only a 'doctrine' as you say... If you want to know what hell really is, then look up the greek words hades and sheol
that is what hell really is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-16-2009 4:21 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-16-2009 6:31 PM Peg has replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4887 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 38 of 73 (535558)
11-16-2009 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peg
11-16-2009 6:04 PM


Re: Damning evidence
Peg writes:
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Yes, that is very well what it could mean, but how? Is there some kind of hidden definition of "allegory" that us others don't know about. If it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible. How do tell between an "allegory" and a "real" event?
most of the Scriptural references to the lion are figurative, or illustrative. The entire nation of Israel was prophetically compared to lions because of a lions invincibility and courage.
Jesus called his followers his 'sheep' and the apostles called Jesus the 'lamb' of God
You still haven't provided any metaphor "meterstick." Just because Jesus named his followers mammals doesn't mean that the same applies to everything else in the Bible.
That's inductive, not deductive reasoning. (Curses, I've been poisoned by Advanced Geometry)
Finding a possible pattern doesn't prove that you are right.
Peg writes:
Teaposts&uncorns writes:
The way you say it seems as if God wanted A&E to disobey
im not trying to make it sound that way. What i mean is that If God did not provide a law in the garden, then they would have had no way to disobey and thus they would have had no choice....IOW they would not have had a way to express their free will.
It's simple. He could have thrown open the gates and said "It's your choice: Here or out there." It would have been a free, and thus informed choice.
Peg writes:
Teaposts&unicorns writes:
Why does God have the right to rule us if we sentient beings?
Revelation 4:11 "...because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created."
That does not mean anything, Peg. If I create a race of new lifeforms from scratch, does that mean that I totally own and command them, even if they are sentient (As i presume humans are.)?
Peg writes:
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Why did God need to demonstrate his authority?
because he is a God of order... you cant have order without an authority. Every human government knows this. Every family head knows this.
Simply having authority does not require the need to show it off.
Is your God flamboyant?
Peg writes:
Teapots&unicorns writes:
It is better to die with purpose than to die outcast and alone, cast out and broken. I presume Jesus was none of those things?
is it acceptable to go to prison for a crime you didnt commit knowing that you are innocent?
Jesus was sinless and therefore his death was a complete and utter travesty of justice.
Did the other individuals die for a purpose, innocent or not?
Did Jesus have absolute and perfect faith/knowledge/belief in God?
Did his death ultimately have any physical meaning to him that it did not to the others?
Peg writes:
And as for 'hell' its only a 'doctrine' as you say
By "doctrine" I meant "inherent teaching and value"
Also:
Tell that to the Catholics.
And the JW.
And the Mormons.
And the Lutherans.
And the Calvinists.
And the Anglicans.
Peg writes:
If you want to know what hell really is, then look up the greek words hades and sheol
that is what hell really is.
Well, judging by the uses of those words you have propped up, then I don't believe that any have to do with:
A furnace of fire
A gnashing of teeth
Fire and brimstone
Smoke of torment
Unquenchable fire and torment
Nope, I don't believe that I've ever heard those ideas referenced that way.
Did you even read my post?
T&U

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 11-16-2009 6:04 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Peg, posted 11-17-2009 4:30 AM Teapots&unicorns has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 39 of 73 (535638)
11-17-2009 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Teapots&unicorns
11-16-2009 6:31 PM


Re: Damning evidence
teapots&unicorns writes:
It's simple. He could have thrown open the gates and said "It's your choice: Here or out there." It would have been a free, and thus informed choice
thats right...and they chose out there.
But their children did not get a chance to choose...they were born 'out there' and therefore they needed a way to choose 'in there or out here'
Jesus has given us that choice.
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Well, judging by the uses of those words you have propped up, then I don't believe that any have to do with:
A furnace of fire
A gnashing of teeth
Fire and brimstone
Smoke of torment
Unquenchable fire and torment
Nope, I don't believe that I've ever heard those ideas referenced that way.
thats right, sheol and hades have nothing to do with fire/brimstone etc
they simply mean the state of being dead, and the place where the dead are buried....in the ground.
Its the church and its introduction of false religious ideas that teach these words to mean fire/brimstone/torture etc
they weave these ideas into the scriptures you posted and put a whole new meaning to them...something that is clearly false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-16-2009 6:31 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-17-2009 7:58 AM Peg has replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4887 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 40 of 73 (535659)
11-17-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Peg
11-17-2009 4:30 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Peg writes:
teapots&unicorns writes:
It's simple. He could have thrown open the gates and said "It's your choice: Here or out there." It would have been a free, and thus informed choice
thats right...and they chose out there.
But their children did not get a chance to choose...they were born 'out there' and therefore they needed a way to choose 'in there or out here'
Jesus has given us that choice.
No he did not. He gave us the tree, told us not to eat without any other reason not to, then put a magical snake to tempt us into doing what we coukdn't have possibly understood.
Informed choice? Not really.
Oh, and Jesus hasn't given us that choice. By your own logic, he would have appeared right after the Fall. As he didn't, maybe "all sorts of things cropped up at the last minute." (Zarquon )
Peg writes:
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Well, judging by the uses of those words you have propped up, then I don't believe that any have to do with:
A furnace of fire
A gnashing of teeth
Fire and brimstone
Smoke of torment
Unquenchable fire and torment
Nope, I don't believe that I've ever heard those ideas referenced that way.
thats right, sheol and hades have nothing to do with fire/brimstone etc
they simply mean the state of being dead, and the place where the dead are buried....in the ground.
Its the church and its introduction of false religious ideas that teach these words to mean fire/brimstone/torture etc
they weave these ideas into the scriptures you posted and put a whole new meaning to them...something that is clearly false.
Ummm...
Those aren't church writings, Peg-
It's in the f***ing Bible!!!
T&U

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Peg, posted 11-17-2009 4:30 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Peg, posted 11-18-2009 12:54 AM Teapots&unicorns has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 73 (535664)
11-17-2009 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Peg
11-16-2009 3:55 AM


Re: Damning evidence
That verse you are quoting is from Romans... he doesnt say anything about animals here.
First of all, we have no idea the timeline for how long A&E were in the garden when they ate of the fruit. It could have been within a few minutes, few days, a few weeks, a few years. The bible is silent on that.
What we do know, however, is that A&E did not eat the flesh of animals. So it is reasonable to say that the illustrations meant by Moses in Genesis is that all life on earth lived in the perfect world that God created for man. That includes no death, until they ate of the fruit which changed everything.
this doesnt mean that before A&E they did not die. Nor does it mean that in the prophecies about the repaired earth, will nothing die. Yes the lamb will reside with the lion...but what do these represent?
Like I said, it insinuated that there was no death before the Fall. The bible does not confirm it in either direction.
could they be speaking allegorically? The hebrew writers called some people 'lions' and like Jesus, they called some people 'sheep'
I doubt it since the verse says "lamb" and not "sheep." Secondly Jesus was referred to as both the "Lamb of God" and the "Lion from the tribe of Judah." Does he lay down with himself?
the point of the tree was twofold.
1. It gave A&E a choice. Without the tree, there would have been no free will because there would have been no way to disobey God.
So then God did in fact provide them a way to disobey. He gives them a curious nature, they have no concept of sin before they ate of it, so what is left to surmise?
did you realise that he did not get baptized until he was on his deathbed?
Baptism is not a means of salvation, it is a means of obedience and a symbolic term for the washing of regeneration. It's just a variation of the mikvah, a very ancient practice in many middle eastern cultures.
I dont think he was a christian at all...he was a political ruler who used the church to his own ends the same way that Hitler did.
All one has to do is profess that Jesus is Lord and believe it in their heart and they are saved. Christianity is not synonymous with benevolence and righteousness. I realize that is the goal, but with how many extortionist televangelists and pedophile priests walk the earth, there is no way one could assume otherwise. I know most Christians would like to believe that, but the biblical criteria for salvation and history serves a testament to it not being synonymous.
Those scriptures do not say Jesus is God. If you read the bible without the knowlege you have of churh teaching, you wouldnt read those ideas into those verses....its impossible.
Obviously it is not impossible otherwise 85% of the Church would not think otherwise. Very reputable pastors ascertained the knowledge simply by reading the scriptures. There are countless churches who in no way, shape, or form follow catholicism. Catholicism cannot be blamed from the introduction of the trinity, the writers of the bible should be blamed.
You are also in an extreme minority when it comes to the trinity.
well the bible is a book from God, about God...so you would expect it to say alot about the subject of God. It doesnt mean though that everyone has to get into heaven and thats why it speaks about God.
I never said that everyone was going to heaven, I simply stated that God's goal is to unite everyone in the heavenly realm. But some are goats and some are sheep.
its so they can live forever on earth under the righteous rulerhsip of Gods kingdom....a kingdom for the earth
Matthew 6:10 "Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth"
And yet no one has ever lived on earth forever, so how can that be the goal? The verse you are quoting is temporal. The mere fact that the righteous are raptured to heaven, while all the vile people are not caught up. Then the dead are judged and will either reside in heaven or in hell. That's the endgame for mankind. We either reside in heaven with the Lord and he wipes every tear from our eye, or we weep and gnash teeth for all eternity.
Its so that they can be rid of the effects of death and sin
Revelation 21:4 ...and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away"
Then why did that not come to pass when he died on the cross?

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Peg, posted 11-16-2009 3:55 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Peg, posted 11-18-2009 1:22 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 42 of 73 (535789)
11-18-2009 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Teapots&unicorns
11-17-2009 7:58 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Teaposts&unicorns writes:
o he did not. He gave us the tree, told us not to eat without any other reason not to
Genesis 2:16, 17 "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die"
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Those aren't church writings, Peg-
It's in the f***ing Bible!!!
you dont get it
the verses you quoted use the words that mean the 'grave' and the 'state of being dead'
it was later church teachers who twisted them to mean something they did not...and do not, mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-17-2009 7:58 AM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-18-2009 4:18 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 43 of 73 (535791)
11-18-2009 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
11-17-2009 8:54 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Hyroghlyphx writes:
What we do know, however, is that A&E did not eat the flesh of animals. So it is reasonable to say that the illustrations meant by Moses in Genesis is that all life on earth lived in the perfect world that God created for man. That includes no death, until they ate of the fruit which changed everything.
Why?
why would the punishment given to A&E transfere to the animals by default?
Paul explained that 'death spread to all MEN because they had all sinned'
If you think the animals also enjoyed everlasting life, you'd need to be able to explain how they could have sinned to bring death upon themselves.
Hyroglyphx writes:
I know most Christians would like to believe that, but the biblical criteria for salvation and history serves a testament to it not being synonymous.
you think that people of the church's are not being judged? And do you think that once saved always saved???
Not likely.
They are the first to be judged by God and at his appointed time those who do not conform to the Christ will not be shown any favor.
Being a part of the church does not make you 'saved'
Hyroglyphx writes:
Catholicism cannot be blamed from the introduction of the trinity, the writers of the bible should be blamed.
if thats what you think, you need to read up on church history.
Hyroglyphx writes:
And yet no one has ever lived on earth forever, so how can that be the goal?
Because that was what God had originally purposed for A&E. His purpose has not changed just because they skrewed up. It is still Gods purpose for those who want to be a part of it.
Hyroglyphx writes:
The mere fact that the righteous are raptured to heaven, while all the vile people are not caught up. Then the dead are judged and will either reside in heaven or in hell. That's the endgame for mankind. We either reside in heaven with the Lord and he wipes every tear from our eye, or we weep and gnash teeth for all eternity.
all those scriptures I provided you about living on the earth and you are still stuck in the 'heaven' mode. Thats indoctrination if ever i saw it lol
For someone who doesnt beleive in religion, you are certainly programed well.
Hyroglyphx writes:
Then why did that not come to pass when he died on the cross?
because there was a lot of work to do with regard to teaching mankind
Jesus, as the head of Gods kingdom has been overseeing the work that he gave to his apostles to teach people about the kingdom. Today the message is in almost all the lands on earth from the icy arctic regions to the middle of the dryest deserts, from the islands of the southpacific to the communistic athiestic countries such as china even.
Jesus prophecies about the last days began earlier this century and they are soon to come to their fulfillment...when that time comes, then Jesus will go into action.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-17-2009 8:54 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2009 10:02 AM Peg has replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4887 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 44 of 73 (535896)
11-18-2009 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Peg
11-18-2009 12:54 AM


Re: Damning evidence
Peg, you are just ignoring everything I'm saying, aren't you.
Peg writes:
Teaposts&unicorns writes:
o he did not. He gave us the tree, told us not to eat without any other reason not to
Genesis 2:16, 17 "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die"
Yes, but he was the one who made that rule up for the sake of having a rule. You have provided no adequate reason, Peg. Please stop avoiding the question.
Peg writes:
you dont get it
the verses you quoted use the words that mean the 'grave' and the 'state of being dead'
it was later church teachers who twisted them to mean something they did not...and do not, mean.
"So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
--The Bible, Matthew 13:40-50 (KJV)
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..."
--The Bible, Revelation 14:10-11 (KJV)
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
I do not see the words "grave" or "state of being dead" here anywhere, Peg.
Once again, if it's in the Bible, it is in the Bible.
And funnily enough, the Bible does mention eternal torment, fire and brimstone, and preference of maiming oneself to offending your "merciful" God.
It's no wonder the Church condemned heretics like you- you're even worse at thinking than they are.
T&U

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Peg, posted 11-18-2009 12:54 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 11-19-2009 5:24 AM Teapots&unicorns has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 45 of 73 (535992)
11-19-2009 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Teapots&unicorns
11-18-2009 4:18 PM


Re: Damning evidence
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Yes, but he was the one who made that rule up for the sake of having a rule. You have provided no adequate reason, Peg. Please stop avoiding the question.
The reason was clearly given to them in the verse i quoted.
here it is again
Genesis 2:16, 17 "as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die"
They were told clearly that they shouldnt eat from the tree because if they did, they would die.
Its like me telling my child "dont touch the stove because it will burn you"
should the child need more explaination then that??? What more could i say to them to show that touching the stove is dangerous and should be avoided???
Teapots&unicorns writes:
It's no wonder the Church condemned heretics like you
the church condemned heretics like me because they spoke out against false teachings...they showed how the church had twisted the meaning of scripture to instill fear
Teaposts&unicorns writes:
Revelation 14:10-11
can you explain this verse and show how this means people will suffer physical punishment in hell?
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell THE GRAVE, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Think about it.... the greek word for 'grave' is translated as 'hell'
The meaning of the greek word for 'grave' is the 'pit' or the place of burial...its the place where we get buried when we die.
So clearly the writer is simply saying that it is better for you to enter into life with only one hand, then have to go to your 'grave' with two.
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
this is not a story Jesus gave about a real person. It was an allegory about the spiritual condition of those who became his followers. The man in 'hell' was in spiritually 'dead' condition while Lazaraz/Jesus diciples enjoyed being close to Abraham/God
this scripture is not a good one to use if you are trying to prove what hell is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-18-2009 4:18 PM Teapots&unicorns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by bluescat48, posted 11-19-2009 8:27 AM Peg has replied
 Message 50 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 11-19-2009 7:40 PM Peg has replied

  
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