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Author Topic:   The problem with creationism and god
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 16 of 109 (531888)
10-20-2009 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Fallen
10-19-2009 8:11 PM


Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't give us an answer to that question.
I sympathise. There is, of course, no evidence at all to support the notion of an intelligent designer. All the evidence points the other way.
Design detection methods try to find the barrier between objects that can be created by natural processes and objects that can only be put together by an intelligent agent making choices.
This putative and allegedly "intelligent" designer has made some very unexpected choices. Why don't aquatic mammals, such as whales and dolphins, have gills instead of lungs? Gills are far better than lungs at exchanging oxygen for carbon dioxide in a maritime environment. [The answer, of course, begins with a large "E"].
Because literally all intelligent agents can make choices, all we can say is that an intelligence of some kind was involved.
Saying it doesn't make it come true, sadly.

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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3444 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 17 of 109 (531938)
10-20-2009 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Fallen
10-19-2009 8:11 PM


A good read about "design criteria"
Fallen said:
Design detection methods try to find the barrier between objects that can be created by natural processes and objects that can only be put together by an intelligent agent making choices.
For a fascinating dissection of that proposition I'd suggest a perusal of the following article:
What Design Looks Like | National Center for Science Education
A particularly salient point being:
In design theory, "looks designed" has been left to the imagination of the believer.
The article addresses several individual criteria by which design (or the lack thereof) may be assessed, namely; structure, simplicity, reproduction, form and function, trial and error, purpose and function, complexity-specification, functional integration, and fine tuning.
The author's conclusion (spoiler alert) is that there is actually a lot more reason to conclude that life does NOT actually fit our notion of "designed".

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Edmund352
Junior Member (Idle past 3587 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 11-18-2009


Message 18 of 109 (535889)
11-18-2009 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by cavediver
10-18-2009 8:03 AM


The Christian God is not a selfish being, he only gets and deserves his praise and adoration. The Greeks and the Romans( and other religions) were the ones who made their Gods corrupt.
But if God would be corrupt and would live exactly like us then were is their perfection?
On the subject of complex design. How can something be too complex to have a designer, God is allpowerful and he could have created the Earth in a second. Like Michael. J. Behe says, there are irreducibly complex structures, and single change and the won't function.
The chance of 1 single living thing coming out of non-living, and that single living thing making the tree of life. All those chances that evolutionists believe in, i don't understand it, how can you fight for the right to have an identity that you were evolved from Apes.
Sorry about my layout and not really sticking to the topic. I'm new so i hope my next post will be better =)

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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 3:39 PM Edmund352 has replied
 Message 24 by lyx2no, posted 11-18-2009 4:34 PM Edmund352 has replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 19 of 109 (535891)
11-18-2009 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 3:28 PM


How can something be too complex to have a designer, God is allpowerful and he could have created the Earth in a second.
Durrrrr. Who created god, then?
Sorry about my layout and not really sticking to the topic. I'm new so i hope my next post will be better =)
Me too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 3:28 PM Edmund352 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:20 PM Blzebub has replied

  
Edmund352
Junior Member (Idle past 3587 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 11-18-2009


Message 20 of 109 (535897)
11-18-2009 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Blzebub
11-18-2009 3:39 PM


quote:
Durrrrr. Who created god, then?
well as someone already said before. By definition God is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. he is the ultimate being and if you want to ask that then there would always be someone higher so basically there would be no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 3:39 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 4:25 PM Edmund352 has replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 21 of 109 (535900)
11-18-2009 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:20 PM


LOL. So the universe requires a creator, but god doesn't?
A double-standard, if ever I saw one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:20 PM Edmund352 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:28 PM Blzebub has replied

  
Edmund352
Junior Member (Idle past 3587 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 11-18-2009


Message 22 of 109 (535901)
11-18-2009 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Blzebub
11-18-2009 4:25 PM


yes
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last - Who exist from everlasting to everlasting. How clear, incontestable a proof, does our Lord here give of his divine glory!

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 Message 21 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 4:25 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 4:33 PM Edmund352 has replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 23 of 109 (535903)
11-18-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:28 PM


'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
Wow. This god seems pretty keen to defend his patch. The bad news is that there are any number of other gods beside this one!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:28 PM Edmund352 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:45 PM Blzebub has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4211 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 24 of 109 (535904)
11-18-2009 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 3:28 PM


Easy Target Alert
The Christian God is not a selfish being
You write as if you're a fan, but you clearly haven't read his teleautobiography.
But if God would be corrupt and would live exactly like us then were is their perfection?
To paraphrase Mark Twain; Give a god a reputation for perfection and he can screw up eight ways till Sunday.
Like Michael. J. Behe says, there are irreducibly complex structures
I wonder why he keeps saying that. I also wonder how long it would take for the Eiffel Tower to flow into the Seine if he were to say it was made of apple sauce.
The chance of 1 single living thing coming out of non-living, and that single living thing making the tree of life.
Hey, looky here: PRATT's don't even need predicates. The chance that non-living material left to it's own devises, given enough time and circumstance will produce imperfectly self-replicating chemical reactions.
All those chances that evolutionists believe in, i don't understand it, how can you fight for the right to have an identity that you were evolved from Apes.
As a tailless primate I utterly reject the silly notion that I have evolved from an ape.

Welcome Edmund352
Not only do I hope that your next post will be better, but that the hundreds or thousands that follow it will be better too.
Edited by lyx2no, : Setting an example.

It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 3:28 PM Edmund352 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:41 PM lyx2no has replied

  
Edmund352
Junior Member (Idle past 3587 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 11-18-2009


Message 25 of 109 (535906)
11-18-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by lyx2no
11-18-2009 4:34 PM


Re: Easy Target Alert
thanks for the welcome...
what do you mean his teleautobiography?
If you have read the bible you would see that God is a perfect God, so i think just because Mark Twain said that doesnt mean its true.
Well sorry mate but thats a well-known fact so you tell me how an irreducibly complex system comes into being.
As for your time and circumstance, that doesn't help much. I'm saying it took some time before the 'first living creature was made' and after that everything ran smoothly? common face the facts, the probability of that happening is virtually zero
Tell me what you believe in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by lyx2no, posted 11-18-2009 4:34 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 4:45 PM Edmund352 has replied
 Message 31 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 4:56 PM Edmund352 has not replied
 Message 32 by onifre, posted 11-18-2009 5:05 PM Edmund352 has not replied
 Message 35 by lyx2no, posted 11-18-2009 6:33 PM Edmund352 has not replied

  
Edmund352
Junior Member (Idle past 3587 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 11-18-2009


Message 26 of 109 (535907)
11-18-2009 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Blzebub
11-18-2009 4:33 PM


yes its his right too, he deserves the grace he gets.
WHat do you mean there are any number of Gods beside this one? If you look at Religions many have 1 God, with the Christian story just slightly modified, how do you think that is? you are an evolutionist?
do you believe in any kind of God?
You think you are born, you live and you die?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 4:33 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 4:51 PM Edmund352 has not replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 27 of 109 (535908)
11-18-2009 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:41 PM


Re: Easy Target Alert
Your god isn't as perfect as Horus, nowhere near as good as Thor, and not a patch on Zeus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:41 PM Edmund352 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:50 PM Blzebub has replied

  
Edmund352
Junior Member (Idle past 3587 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 11-18-2009


Message 28 of 109 (535910)
11-18-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Blzebub
11-18-2009 4:45 PM


Re: Easy Target Alert
sry but what are you on about?
can you be serious? Zeus Horus and Thor acted just like humans

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Blzebub, posted 11-18-2009 4:45 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 29 of 109 (535911)
11-18-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:45 PM


the Christian story just slightly modified
Actually, the christian story contains elements of many preceding religions.
do you believe in any kind of God?
Yes, I believe in the flying spaghetti monster.
You think you are born, you live and you die?
Yes. But the really great news is that after you die, there's a beer fountain with strippers.

This message is a reply to:
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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4736 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 30 of 109 (535912)
11-18-2009 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:50 PM


Re: Easy Target Alert
can you be serious? Zeus Horus and Thor acted just like humans
In what way did they act like humans?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:50 PM Edmund352 has not replied

  
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