The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell

Here is the OP to hopefully help get the thread back on path. Participants, please try to tie your position back to the topic and not run astray for tiny details.Also please remember to argue the position and not the person. Refrain from snide remarks and personal characterizations. Also refrain from writing one line posts that don't further the discussion. Updates aren't needed.Remember, this is a debate board and not a chat board. There are forums for chat-like discussions.

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Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

AdminPD,Understood.Free-will ties into the Christian concept of heaven and hell which is why we are discussing it. If this is not kosher please let me know but since I am the one that opened up this thread in the first place I would hope that I should be able to help get it back on track.Thanks and have a Happy Thanksgiving.

The command according to the Bible is "Thou shalt not steal", with no spin or alteration. Its not, "thou shalt not steal, except in certain situations that you or your circumstances dictate"There not moral people if they violate Gods teaching, no matter the exception. Im not saying I would not lie in that situation, but there is no need to rationalize my behavior to alter Gods word or teaching.EAM

Participants please try to make the subtitle give a glimpse of what the post is about.The "final final thoughts" doesn't really fit anymore.Thanks
AdminPD

So you are basically saying that you would willing violate God's law because you think it would be right to do so in your own mind even if you thing it is wrong according to your intepretation of God. This is the empitome cognitive dissonance.So in your God's eyes lying to murdering Nazi's in 1940's Germany and Netherlands about hiding Jews in your house was wrong and evil. And you call my values and ethics twisted and wrong.I guess Corrie ten Boom and many other Christians and non-Christians in Europe were evil people for hiding those Jews in their houses. I seriously don't think that Corrie ten Boom, herself a devout Christian all her life, believed that she was disobeying God by lying to the Nazis. Do you? Really?And you wonder why many of us non-believers have issues with religious fundamentalism. Notice I did not say Christianity as a whole. I have no problem with Christian values i.e. Golden rule, etc, but I do have a problem with intollerent religious extremism and bigotry from any religion.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

No I dont think it would be the right thing to do, to LIE, I think I would not want those people to die. There is however a thing that is even more important than death and that is Gods principles and commands. God could have easily put his hand forward and stopped his Son from dying at the hands of the jews and Romans, but he did not, there was a greater principle.we are humans so we may not percieve that simple act of lying as sin or evil to save those lives and we would react as humans do, but this does not negate the simple principle in the commandments.I see no EXCEPTIONS that would negate this principle as not being wrong. If you can find a written one let me see it.My argument was from the scriptures to establish that lying was wrong in any situation, youve done nothing counterfatually from that same source to demonstrate otherwise, except to whin and complain its always evil to violate Gods laws, no matter the situation or circunstance. If she was a devout christian, this single act did not define her ENTIRE Christian life. If she was a devout Christian and now passed on then she is with her Lord.I am saying also as Paul stated, "What shall we say then, shall we sin that grace may abound, God forbid, how shall we that are dead to sin live anylonger therein" By "live" he means making it a way of life, not single acts. Although Those single acts are still sin, NO MATTER WHATSimply because we have grace form God and he overlooks sin, we should not delude ourselves in believing that its alright to sin,in certain situations, to recieve more grace, or to dismiss our actions Single acts of disobedience DO NOT define the entire Christian walk, but they dont become something other than sin, because the circumstance may seem to justify it. Anyone with half a brain can see where that would lead Your argument is not with me, fundamentalists, liberal Christians, or anybody else. Your argument is with the scriptures and you simply dont like what it says. Perhaps Joseph Fletcher is more you speed.It depends on how and what direction you are making the point about heaven and hell, are you looking at the mental aspects of heaven and hell from the scriptures or the human mind. Whos and what psychological perspective are you coming from, the bibles or mans interpretation of it or what?Further you understand nothing about God, his laws, his grace and the system we are now under. from a Biblical perspective there are things worse than death. If there were not Christ certainly would not have given up his life in that regardEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Yeah, you tell him EMA. He understands nothing! Only YOU can interpret scripture the right way, so please continue to explain it to us in your perspective exactly how morality is written out in the Bible. Its a good thing you showed up to this forum or we would have lost our ability to achieve salvation.I asked you before, if your ability to interpret scripture better than mine or DA's? If so, why?- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

You are equivocating. Do you or do you not think the right thing to do would be to lie to the Nazis? The Nazis are asking if you are hiding Jews in your house. This is a yes or no question. If you say no you are lying. If you say yes these Jewish families including children will be captured, tortured and murdered. If you say yes, you are in essence condoning the persecution of these Jewish families who put their trust in you to keep them safe. Do you really understand what happened in Nazi concentration camps (as well as other concentration camps)? If not, I would suggest you read up on books like Corrie ten Boom’s The Hiding Place, the diary of Anne Frank and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel’s Night. Then by your definition your god is a selfish bastard and an evil tyrant who cares more about someone breaking is stupid little rules than the horrendous persecution, torture and murder of innocent people including infants and children. And you think your Jesus is the only person on this planet to suffer? Jesus, if he ever existed, was not the only person to be persecuted, tortured or even crucified. Lying to protect the lives of other people is not evil. To say otherwise is ludicrous, destructive and just plain stupid. If a complete stranger or a known sexual offender asks if you have children in your house are you going to say yes? Really?!?Even the Jews do not take it to the extreme that fundamentalist Christians do and believe that the sanctity of life outweighs the necessity to tell the truth in every situation. This is also exemplified throughout the Bible itself i.e. David lying to protect his friend Jonathon from his father who wanted to kill him, etc. This is what your Jesus himself fought against the Pharisees in stating that the spirit of the law was MORE IMPORTANT than the letter of the law. In other words, you are more worried about following rules than about the well-being of another human being both physically and psychologically. That is the very self-centered, egotistical, self-righteous attitude your Jesus battled the Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees in the Bible.Yes, I believe that in most everyday situations honesty is the best approach and frivolous lying normally brings about disastrous results and is normally a selfish and self-destructive act. However, like I said earlier, human behavior is NOT black and white and there are times when honesty itself can be a destructive act i.e. not having the moral backbone to standup to criminals from conducting destructive acts due to your 'honesty', captured POWs devulging state secrets while being tortured and interrogated, etc.I would even suspect that most fundamentalist Christians believe the same thing even at the same time speaking out of the other side of their mouth saying that these acts are ALWAYS wrong and evil. You cannot have it both ways.So if I am in the battlefield and the enemy tortures me and I lie to protect the freedoms and safety of other human beings that is evil? Really? You mean your interpretation of this commandment: You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. The commandment actually states You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. not that shalt not lie. These are two very different concepts which fundamentalist Christians correlate and oversimplify . You would not accept anything I would provide anyways so why should I go through the trouble?. Whine and complain? Really you need to get a clue and grow up. I brought up legitimate and rational points, if you don’t like me questioning your beliefs, tough shit, go find a religious extremist forum where they accept you without question.BTW, where in the Bible does it say lying is wrong in every circumstance?So in your God's eyes lying to murdering Nazi's in 1940's Germany and Netherlands about hiding Jews in your house was wrong and evil. And you call my values and ethics twisted and wrong.I guess Corrie ten Boom and many other Christians and non-Christians in Europe were evil people for hiding those Jews in their houses. I seriously don't think that Corrie ten Boom, herself a devout Christian all her life, believed that she was disobeying God by lying to the Nazis. Do you? Really? The problem is not so much with this but with your interpretation of what God’s laws are. Many Christians and Jews, many of which probably have a greater understanding of the Bible than you, would disagree in your interpretation of these laws. This series of acts were one of the most honorable and GOOD things she did in her life. She and her family herself were sent to concentration camps and she single-handedly saved literally dozens of lives. And you wonder why many of us non-believers have issues with religious fundamentalism. Notice I did not say Christianity as a whole. I have no problem with Christian values i.e. Golden rule, etc, but I do have a problem with intollerent religious extremism and bigotry from any religion. Bullshit, my argument is with you and your religious extremist and fundamentalist friends and your wrong headed worldview of intolerance, bigotry and self-centered self-righteous attitudes and behavior. Again stop telling me what my argument is. My source of contention is with the Christian fundamentalists justification for sending all of humanity to hell as I discussed in the OP. Please do not tell me what I do and do not understand. You know NOTHING about me. Do not presume you do. You do not know my background or my education much less my previous spiritual life as a Christian. And that is the source of contention that so called loving Christians would accept such a destructive and hateful view of reality as to believe that many of their friends and family will be eternally tormented FOREVER while they frolic in heaven with God. It is sickening, revulting and disgusting. If Jesus existed and he indeed was the Son of God.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

A lot of the argument in this thread seems to revolve around the idea that free will applies to our control of our own actions.If so, what is Paul talking about in this passage? The apostle seems to be asserting, very vigorously, that his free will applies only to what he wants to do (his thinking), and not at all to what he actually ends up doing (his actions.) Is he mistaken in this assertion? Does he require correction from someone who knows more theology than him?Do we go to hell for our actions? Or for our intentions? Or just by default, pending intervention from some Higher Power....

- OniObviously you have no ability to interpret or you would have provided it.
I understand your frustration ONI, simply provide me with another scripture that allows each individual person to set aside the simple command of not to steal, that then demonstrates it was not a sin in the first place Provide me with the one 9from Gods edicts not mans actions in the bible) that allows the situation at hand to override Gods simple directive.Im all for another explanation, but I noticed you provided nothing but sarcasm and banter. By all means proceed.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

What difference does this make? We are disputing the justification of it from a human perspective not from strictly a Biblical perspective.Our beef so to speak from a humanist point of view is that we don't believe these rules should be as black and white as what Christian fundamentalists make them out to be with no consideration for the conditions, motives or background behind the infractions. The same point of view can be said of the religious justification in their belief in heaven and hell.In other words, how can a good god condemn all of humanity to hell for breaking simple rules such as stealing bread or lying to protect another humans life? This is what is called in legal terms "the reasonable person standard"? If this type of thinking doesn't hold up in our human courts why should we expect any less from a supposedly all-knowing, all-good, all-present supernatural entity?

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

You cant take NO for an answer can you? I told you it would not be the RIGHT THING to do from a Biblical perspective, to lie, lying is always wrong and in all cases, a sin. What I would do and what God deems as a sin are two different things, if that is what I choose to do. did you not pay attention to the part where I said God does not immediatley punish every thing that violates his principles and that that one action on the ladys part did not constitute her whole Christian walk. perhaps God is not a bastard, maybe you just an idiot and cant understand simple biblical principles. of course I am just kidding about the idiot part, as I assume you were about calling God those names. Come on DA, when I debated you in the distant past you seemed so much more rational, now you are letting your emotions run wild. Your response has nothing to do with the argument I made. god says lying is wrong, point blank, if you disagree, your intitled to your opinion. Im going to have to go with God and the scriptures.To answer your question directly, if a person asked me if such a thing I would do several things, one of which is possibly lie depending if he had the drop on me with a gun. another is say nothing at all. another is try and over power him, since I am 245 pounds of isometric muscle, and a 2nd degree black belt in Aikido, in the first place. Id love to have seen Steven S and Chuck N, go at it in thier prime. Im betting Chuck would have prevailed, even though steven S, is one of my idols, that boy IS, or was badat any rate as I said before God is very forgiving in the first place and does not always punish immediatley a single sin. If he did none us would be here in the first place. Another atheistic Bible interpreter, Hmmmmm.Do you remember Jesus saying, "Do as they say, not as they DO"
Do you remember him saying, speaking of Gods laws to the pharisees, "You should have practiced the one (forgiveness and mercy), without leaving off the weighter matters of the law"In other words he was saying, its fine to practice the letter if you also, practice the spirit of the law. Name rank and serial number is not lying. Saying nothin at all is not lying.heres an example, Tasha Yar says to Spock, "You will give the location of the other ships", Spock says, after raising eyebrow, "Since it is logical to assume you will kill us in either instance, I choose not to cooperate". see, he didnt lie Simply say nothing at all. Then let them present thier argument she was a great person as I have stated and she is now with her Lord Then simply present the passage from Gods directives that allows for a lie to be not a lie, but something different or less than a lie. DA argue it rationally, not emotionally. It almost demonstrates you are lacking in a valid respone.I dont know what eternal torment is or is not. It may be one of those things that when we get there, that it is explained and understood, it in a way we cannot now understand and it will make sense from a omnipotent perspectiveEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

I thought we were looking at it from a Biblical perspective, since God is the one despensing heaven and hell from freewill perspctive.Ok, well, that will depend on what person you ask, in which country and in which century. if we are going at it from a human perspective, let me know when you get a consensus, that every persons agrees on, and Ill take a look at it. they may be black and white from an omnipotent eternal perspective and they could be nothing short of that, for omniscience could be nothing short of absolute, by its very nature. however, god is not simply knowledge and rules, he is forgiveness, longsuffering, patience and mercy. if you are looking for and insist on grey areas, I suppose these would be as close as you could come to that discription Again, i dont know exacally what eternal punishment involves and entails. i do know that an 0mnipotent eternal perspective is much better than mine, thats assuming you believe in the Bible as Gods word, I doHuman courts uphold many things God would not approve of and are violations of his will, directly or indirectly.heres one for you from a human perspective. If as you say, it is ok to put someone to death in certain cases of capital punisment, would it be ok to cut of thier hand, if they are a bonified kleptomaniac? if not , why not.EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Is lying always a sin? When might lying not be a sin? Could lying be a virtue? Would lying to save Jewish children from genocide be a very great virtue? Does God tend to lie? What justification could be given for this? Is this an important point in theology, or just an irrelevant misunderstanding? Which side in this debate is liable to end up in hell? Seriously. Not a joke.

What was the purpose of Jesus then? . . . but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until his enemies be made a footstool for his feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB) Hebrews 10:12-14- Oni