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Author Topic:   Why did Noah's descendents forsake God so quickly?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 46 of 74 (530354)
10-13-2009 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Izanagi
10-13-2009 4:23 AM


Izanaqi writes:
However they may have turned their back on God, they still believed in him. God worship as a whole did not die out.
yes that exactly right. They knew who the God of their forefathers were yet they still actively took part in worship of other false gods...the gods of egypt included a cow god and what did the isrealites make while they waited for Moses to return??
a golden calf
knowing Noahs God does not mean that the people are going to keep worshiping him...even after he displayed his strength to the isrealites, they still turned their back on him. Why would Noahs immediate decendents be any different?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 4:23 AM Izanagi has replied

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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 47 of 74 (530358)
10-13-2009 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Peg
10-13-2009 5:47 AM


knowing Noahs God does not mean that the people are going to keep worshiping him...even after he displayed his strength to the isrealites, they still turned their back on him. Why would Noahs immediate descendants be any different?
Because turning your back on God isn't the same as suddenly worshipping many gods. Because having most people turn their backs doesn't mean that everyone turns their back on God. If all people were raised with the same faith in God, as you might expect, then there should be mention of monotheism somewhere else around the world. God should be found somewhere else simply because some people would've held onto those beliefs. But the fact is, we don't find that. Belief in a monotheistic God is nearly strictly Middle Eastern. No other place on Earth records such a belief.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 74 (530369)
10-13-2009 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Izanagi
10-12-2009 10:00 AM


The source of faith
Izanaqi writes:
But that's the point. If not everyone is going to forsake the worship of God, then there should be some mention of the God of Abraham somewhere else in the world, anywhere else. But the God of Abraham is uniquely Middle Eastern in that beyond the Middle East, there has never been a belief in God.
We would expect mention of the Abrahamic God somewhere outside the Middle East if humanity began again after the flood with eight people who were fervent believers in God. Remember, Noah and his family were unique among the rest of the world prior to the flood because of their faith. That's why God choose to save them. So you would expect Noah and his family to make sure their descendants held to those beliefs. So there should have been some people out there who held similar beliefs as the Hebrews, shouldn't there?
...
Yet consider that for at least a generation a great majority of the Hebrews were able to keep to their faith under the whips of Pharaoh. Doesn't it seem contradictory to say that they lost faith so quickly in one instance while in another instance they kept to their faith so strongly?
I might be able to deal with your points by taking a brief look at what faith is - as evidenced in both this case and in the Bible in general.
We might agree that the reason Noah & Co. had 'faith' was because God manifested himself to them (or because his actions were made manifestly his, by him). That is to say, the faith in question isn't a blind, unevidenced faith. Rather, it's belief based on evidence (and a supremely rational position to occupy). A key point to note then, is that a persons faith (of this kind) depends on one requirement being met, to whit: God acts. If God doesn't act so as to ensure someone believes in him then someone won't believe in him. Which is to say: hearing about God in secondhand fashion doesn't produce faith, encountering God does.
So when we look at the failure of the 'Abrahamic God' to appear other than in the middle east we can say that that failure is due (primarily) to a failure on God's part to manifest himself to people other than in the middle east (for whatever reasons he might have). Which is to repeat: faith cannot be transmitted by word of mouth - only stories can be.
And if a mere story isn't transmitted from an epicentre unto all corners of the globe then what of it? Especially when the story concerns a God whom people have replaced with a god they feel to be real-er?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Izanagi, posted 10-12-2009 10:00 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Izanagi, posted 10-13-2009 10:06 AM iano has replied

  
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5216 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 49 of 74 (530390)
10-13-2009 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
10-13-2009 7:45 AM


Re: The source of faith
So when we look at the failure of the 'Abrahamic God' to appear other than in the middle east we can say that that failure is due (primarily) to a failure on God's part to manifest himself to people other than in the middle east (for whatever reasons he might have). Which is to repeat: faith cannot be transmitted by word of mouth - only stories can be.
Then no one in the world currently has faith because no one in the world has seen an act of God. I think that's where your argument leads to, right?
Especially when the story concerns a God whom people have replaced with a god they feel to be real-er?
That doesn't make sense. A hundred years later, people replace a God of whom they can see the evidence of God's existence firsthand with gods that they just arbitrarily made up because they seemed more real? If you are seriously arguing that acts from above are required for faith, then the Egyptian gods are no more real than the God of Abraham. There should be no reason to decide to worship some guy named Ra because Ra hasn't done anything and won't do anything because he isn't real. If anything, people would fall to their default religion, which is the religion they were taught to believe in growing up. That religion would've been God.
Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

It's just some things you never get over. That's just the way it is. You go on through... best as you can. - Matthew Scott
----------------------------------------
Marge, just about everything is a sin. (holds up a Bible) Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom. - Reverend Lovejoy
----------------------------------------
You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe. - Marcus Cole

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by iano, posted 10-13-2009 7:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by iano, posted 10-14-2009 7:37 AM Izanagi has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 50 of 74 (530393)
10-13-2009 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Izanagi
10-12-2009 9:40 PM


Re: Faith
Hi Izanagi,
Izanagi writes:
Whether or not Jesus was the Son of God is a different issue than whether or not God real.
Actually Jesus was not the Son of God or a Son of God. Jesus was God.
Matthew tells us: The child would be God with us (in the flesh), as prophesied.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Jesus said:
John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jesus went into the House of God and cleaned it up.
Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mark 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
The Jews killed Jesus because He claimed to be God.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
After seeing the crucified and risen Jesus Thomas testified:
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Izanagi writes:
who am I to believe?
You can believe anything you desire to believe.
I gave you scripture that supports my position.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by hooah212002, posted 10-13-2009 11:07 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 74 by caldron68, posted 01-03-2010 8:32 PM ICANT has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 51 of 74 (530394)
10-13-2009 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Peg
10-13-2009 3:58 AM


Re: Flood legends on all continents.
Sure deserts have floods since most are relatively flat. Still no flood stories in mountain areas which was the premise of my last post.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Peg, posted 10-13-2009 3:58 AM Peg has not replied

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 52 of 74 (530400)
10-13-2009 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICANT
10-13-2009 10:34 AM


Re: Re: Faith
Mark 1:10-11 writes:
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
hmm????? Who is jesus' father then?
Edited by hooah212002, : fixed quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 10-13-2009 10:34 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ICANT, posted 10-13-2009 11:31 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 53 of 74 (530406)
10-13-2009 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by hooah212002
10-13-2009 11:07 AM


Re: Faith
Hi hooah,
hooah writes:
hmm????? Who is jesus' father then?
He does not have one as He is God.
I can't help it if the writers could not understand that God and the Son was the same entity just a different manifestation.
I don't expect you to understand it either.
Most clergy I know today can not even understand it. Many just accept it.
I have no problem with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit being one entity. I am in their image, mind, body and spirit.
God Bless,
(30)

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by hooah212002, posted 10-13-2009 11:07 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by hooah212002, posted 10-13-2009 11:36 AM ICANT has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 54 of 74 (530409)
10-13-2009 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by ICANT
10-13-2009 11:31 AM


Re: Faith
Mark 1:10-11 writes:
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
So this is allegory then? God is talking to himself? Why would God need to be baptized?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

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 Message 53 by ICANT, posted 10-13-2009 11:31 AM ICANT has replied

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 55 of 74 (530410)
10-13-2009 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by bluescat48
10-13-2009 10:44 AM


Re: Flood legends on all continents.
Hi cat,
bluescat48 writes:
Sure deserts have floods since most are relatively flat. Still no flood stories in mountain areas which was the premise of my last post.
Who says there was mountains when the flood occured.
There was mountains when Moses was doing his writing.
According to the Bible all the land mass was in one place and could have been relatively flat like my avatar shows.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by bluescat48, posted 10-13-2009 10:44 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by hooah212002, posted 10-13-2009 11:39 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 57 by Dr Jack, posted 10-13-2009 11:54 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 58 by Peepul, posted 10-13-2009 12:04 PM ICANT has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 56 of 74 (530411)
10-13-2009 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
10-13-2009 11:37 AM


Re: Flood legends on all continents.
Who says there was mountains when the flood occured.
This has been argued elsewhere and shown the implications of it. Do you realize the ramifications of all the worlds mountains being produced ina few thousand years? Yet there are no reports of MAJOR, successive earthquakes which would have been at least ONE result of said mountain formations?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 57 of 74 (530416)
10-13-2009 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
10-13-2009 11:37 AM


Re: Flood legends on all continents.
So when the Bible talks about the flood covering "high hills" and "mountains" that bit's not literal?
When they see the "mountain tops" visible above the receding flood waters, they're not real mountains? What about "Mount Ararat" when the Ark comes to rest? Is that not a real mountain?
Edited by Mr Jack, : Grammar + extra

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 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 10-13-2009 11:37 AM ICANT has replied

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Peepul
Member (Idle past 5018 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 58 of 74 (530417)
10-13-2009 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ICANT
10-13-2009 11:37 AM


Re: Flood legends on all continents.
quote:
Who says there was mountains when the flood occured.
Ararat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 10-13-2009 11:37 AM ICANT has replied

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 59 of 74 (530467)
10-13-2009 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Peepul
10-13-2009 12:04 PM


Re: Flood legends on all continents.
Who says there was mountains when the flood occured.
Ararat?
Evidently the ark must have rested on thin air since there were no mountains and the inhabitants floated back to earth.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Peepul, posted 10-13-2009 12:04 PM Peepul has not replied

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 Message 60 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-13-2009 5:13 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 60 of 74 (530476)
10-13-2009 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by bluescat48
10-13-2009 4:22 PM


To all that are doing such trite messages
Stop the trite, snipey, etc. etc. etc. type comments that only function to clutter things up and/or antagonize people.
6 hour suspension to Bluescat48.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
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