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Author Topic:   Does complexity require intelligent design?
trent13
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 229 (191977)
03-16-2005 5:32 PM


hmmm...intelligent design
I believe in intelligent design. This intelligent designer I call God. I don't believe that in Himself, God can be proved because this would mean He was self-evident. But I do believe that the credibility of God can be proved. In the summa theologica by Aquinas, the arguments more or less are for intelligent design, they just go one step beyond and state that this, "uncaused cause/first mover, etc... we call God." The skelatal structure of his arguments for the credibility of intelligent design are based on the first principles, and they follow logically, so I've never had reason to question the credibility of God's existence. There are several points and they go something like this if I remember correctly:
1. There are "things."
2. These "things" are not of themselves but are "by which"
3. Neither are the "things by which" of themselves but by dependence on another
4. This other is also a "thing by which"
5. Thus there is a continuation of "things by which"
6. But there cannot be a continuation of "things by which" to infinity for "things by which" then could not be "by which," but would maintain their existence entirely of themselves
7. But if there is an end to the chain of "things by which" so also is there a beginnning
8. This beginning must be the only thing to exist entirely of its own accord and not by which
9. This thing we call God.
As applied to intelligent design specifically Aquinas said:
"The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God."
The argument that a lot of people like to use against this is that things which lack intelligence don't necessarily work towards an end and just exist for and by their own sake. But I think that nothing I have ever seen exists of its own volition, therefore, because its existence is dependent on another, there has to be a reason, an end for its very existence. The final end of everything not intelligent was meant for man's use - and man was meant for the glory of God. And God simply is.

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Silent H, posted 03-16-2005 5:49 PM trent13 has not replied
 Message 35 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-16-2005 5:58 PM trent13 has replied

  
trent13
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 229 (191996)
03-16-2005 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by pink sasquatch
03-16-2005 5:58 PM


Re: definition games?
I reply in all charity to your many objections because it is good practice for me. right, so someone pointed out that my argument of intelligent design doesn't argue for intelligent design but for creationsim - let me say that, though perhaps you do and I should, I didn't distinguish between the two. God is the creator, yes, and He is intelligent. He neither covers space nor time, is neither as small as a sub-atomic particle, nor as large as the infinite limits of the universe, for He is all and holds all in being, time and space included. These may seem to you very strange beliefs, very stupid, because they can't be proven. That's why it's called faith, it can't be proven. Faith is a gift, but you dont't get it without wanting it. I've read what I've read, and I wanted to have faith, and I was given it. Interestingly enough, the only one's who truly believe in Christ are Christians and Satanists. LOL Anyway, right, objections.
1. "Perhaps the logic holds thus far (if you ignore some rather obvious possibilities like an infinite past for all matter"
Why is that an "obvious possibility"? I would say the exact opposite. Something doesn't come from nothing, no matter how hard you try. There has to have been a first thing whereby all matter came into existence. Non-being to being is impossible. The very idea of existence is grounded on the fact that the essence of a thing moves from being in potential to it being actualized. Things just don't exist on their own - have you ever witnessed any given thing come of its own out of absolute nothing?
2. That logic does not follow from the argument that God was the "first thing".
Mea Culpa - I explained above that I did not make admittance of the idea that one who is the first thing could be unintelligent - however, Thomas argues that because God is first likewise in perfection - the fourth way to prove the credibility of God's existence in the Summa, He likewise must have the most perfect intellect.
3."What exactly does this mean, to you? An example perhaps? Could you give a defintion of "end" as used by Aquinas? Perhaps "goal" is interchangeable, but the "goal" of whom or what?"
The unintelligent thing. An ocean for example, what does it do? Why does it do it - not how, but why? Were we to completely do away with the question of why a thing does something I really think that we would be able to live without the existence of God, but we can't. Why does the ocean exist? For a multitude of reasons. But why for those reasons. Let us take one. The ocean exists so that marine life may exist in it. why? So that man may have fish to eat. Why? Because man needs sustenance...or oil from whales, or whatever other scientific reasons one could give for not doing away with the ocean. another, the ocean exists so that an entire body of marine animals in all their various forms can provide a multitudinous amount of resources - without which resources being available and usable defeats the very purpose of its existence in the long, long run. This is so precisely because they are unintelligent. Humans, as the only rational creatures were meant to use all the other irrational creatures for they are inferior. There was a reason why man was created with an intellect, and nothing else material was. And neither does the ocean exist just to exist. It exists for our use and God's glory.
"Does a pebble rolling down a hill, or the formation of a water molecule, achieve an end? If so, where is the design detectable in such instances?"
Your proposed pebble rolling down the hill, got stuck in the spoke of a wheel of a proud Cardinal just a little outside of a village, the pebble eventually so damaged things that the wheel broke and he had to stop in the village while it was repaired. While he was stopped he was exposed to much destitution and extreme poverty. he realized how bad it was that he was proud and had a conversion, grew in sanctity, eventually became pope, reformed the Church. Now, the pebble however didn't just roll down the hill of its own accord - it was either moved by gravity, or vibration, or a very, very strong wind, etc... but all these inher in something else. That which inhers in something else, does not depend on itself for its existence. I remove myself farther and claim that God created all the things above, and motion, which allowed for the situation to happen - and the sum total of the events, from the pebble rolling to the reform of the Church was for His glory. That is the final end of all things - to glorify God. God is perfect, He is happy, He is the wisest, etc... but glory can only come from something other than itself - thus, He created everything created, which final end is for His glory.
4.Which God? The Judeo-Christian God? I make no admittance of any other

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-16-2005 5:58 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by RAZD, posted 03-16-2005 7:37 PM trent13 has not replied
 Message 38 by sidelined, posted 03-16-2005 10:52 PM trent13 has not replied
 Message 50 by Silent H, posted 03-17-2005 5:58 AM trent13 has not replied
 Message 58 by pink sasquatch, posted 03-17-2005 11:43 AM trent13 has not replied

  
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