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Author | Topic: Fine tuning/ programming | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Kaichos Man writes: Why not say 'goddidit' and apply for a lot more funding? To find out how goddidit? But that's not what happens is it? Say we discover via the scientific methodology that (for example) all of the diversity of life we see in the world is because of a process called evolution, then some people could logically say "Wow! So that's how our god did it!" Does that happen? Well yes it does with many people. But the issue is with people who believe in the inerrancy of the bible. They say "It can't be (for example) evolution because the bible says otherwise". Full stop. Period. End of discussion. The only way these people will look for answers is by saying "Our goddidit by magic" and stopping there.
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Kaichos Man Member (Idle past 4516 days) Posts: 250 From: Tasmania, Australia Joined: |
Does that happen? Well yes it does with many people Seems you don't need me to argue with!
The only way these people will look for answers is by saying "Our goddidit by magic" and stopping there Sir Isaac Newton? He believed in God, and he certainly didn't stop there. "Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy." Charles Darwin
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Sir Isaac Newton? He believed in God, and he certainly didn't stop there. Well actually..... Newton could arguably have gone a lot further if he had not been quite so willing to invoke Goddidit as an answer.
Wiki writes: In addition to stepping in to re-form the solar system, Newton invoked God's active intervention to prevent the stars falling in on each other, and perhaps in preventing the amount of motion in the universe from decaying due to vicosity and friction.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton's_religious_views Instead it was left to Lagrange to take celestail mechanics further who when asked about the role of God famously said "I had no need of that hypothesis." Anyway off topic so my apologies and I will leave it at that. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 93 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
If you think that what I demonstrated is not accurate, thats a flaw in your understanding. The thing is you haven't demonstrated anything. You have simply argued that aspects of nature are too complex to have arisen naturally. But this still amounts to little more than argument from incredulity and still has all of the problems detailed in Message 20. All you have done here is cite a very speciific example rather than the generic case. But it still amounts to: "I don't see how this could have occurred naturally therefore it must be designed".
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Sir Isaac Newton? He believed in God, and he certainly didn't stop there. The point is that when we say 'goddidit' the enquiry stops. As Straggler points out.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Sir Isaac Newton? He believed in God, and he certainly didn't stop there. And he didn't try to explain celestial mechanics in terms of God doing magic. Otherwise we wouldn't have heard of the man.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
And he didn't try to explain celestial mechanics in terms of God doing magic. Otherwise we wouldn't have heard of the man. Well, yes he did when he didn't have a stable solution for the solar system he concluded that God held it together. He did stop his research and he was wrong to do so. This is a very good example of the problem of the Goddidit "solution" because we can see that the man was dammed smart; smart enough to have solved the problem maybe. But he gave up and used the goddidit answer so we can't know now if he was smart enough. Legrange showed himself to be either smarter or not influenced by the easy and unproductive way out.
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Perdition Member (Idle past 3265 days) Posts: 1593 From: Wisconsin Joined: |
Atheism believes that God does not exist, therefore it is a faith. Not quite. Lacking a belief doesn't imply a belief in the opposite. I don't have to believe a god DOESN'T exist in order to not believe. For instance, I could just stop at, "I don't know," I'm still an athiest, meaning I don't actually believe, but I also don't actually disbelieve. I happen to believe a God is improbable, but I could easily be convinced if any evidence of an unambiguous nature were to turn up.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2505 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Dr.Sing writes: I have no interest in furthering a discussion where the opposite party does not acknowledge my argument. In other words, if you would like to refute my point--please be objective. I've pointed out to you that the fact that mutations subtract features as well as adding them destroys your argument. That is not the same as not acknowledging your argument. Your post could be read as an attempt to avoid answering my point. Do you understand the concept of scaffolding in evolution as applied to complex systems like the one you're describing in the heart?
Dr.Sing writes: If you think that what I demonstrated is not accurate, thats a flaw in your understanding. You have not "demonstrated" that nature cannot attain the intricacy and complexity of the human heart, and your claim is an extraordinary one. There is a "Dr.Sing Posts Only" link on the thread that can be read by anyone. You are claiming that, in the 17 posts made here, that you have achieved what no human has ever achieved before, and demonstrated that an apparently natural phenomenon cannot be "attained by nature". That would be bigger than Einstein's contribution to science. But there's only one problem. You haven't actually demonstrated anything at all, just made an argument that is easily dismissed.
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3763 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
straggler writes: The thing is you haven't demonstrated anything. You have simply argued that aspects of nature are too complex to have arisen naturally. But this still amounts to little more than argument from incredulity and still has all of the problems detailed in Complexity (Message 20). All you have done here is cite a very speciific example rather than the generic case. But it still amounts to: "I don't see how this could have occurred naturally therefore it must be designed". Okay, so please explain to me how it might have occurred naturally. Actually, let me be specific: how do you explain the occurance of action potential generation/conduction in a pure naturalist fashion without the intervention of intelligence? If you can demonstrate this, I'll ask you one more question. But go ahead...
bluegenes writes: I've pointed out to you that the fact that mutations subtract features as well as adding them destroys your argument. Do you understand the concept of scaffolding in evolution as applied to complex systems like the one you're describing in the heart? This is what I was hoping to receieve: A succint statement.No, I have heard about scaffolding but I'm sure you know more than I do about it. I'm all ears. I forgot to mention: yeah, mutations sometimes subtract features.
larni writes: The point is that when we say 'goddidit' the enquiry stops. As Straggler points out. This enquiry will not stop with the claim that ascribes the design of nature to God's grand design because if you think am wrong, you will provide reasons for your conclusion and that way I can see flaws in my argument. And we'll take it further from there...The claim that my argument is from incredulity is not going to work. I am willing to provide other evidences of intelligence if thats what going to aid our discussion. And I might not have the best supported arugments, some of it might be flawed some of might be proven only through further study....I'm not here to tell everyone I'm an "Einstein". But conluding that a person is arguing from incredularity and saying just as much as that is as good as saying 'god did it' and walking out the door. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given. Edited by Dr. Sing, : clarified something Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3763 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
percy writes: We do not see a designer inserting improved genes into populations. You're postulating a mechanism for which there is no evidence. As far as the heart goes, any mutations that change the configuration and composition in a way that permits more efficient pumping will be selected for, those that do the opposite will be selected against, and that is all that is required for the design of the intricate interplay of signals and forces in the heart. okay, here's the perfect question to ask you: Do you have evidence for the natural development of the process of action potential? A step by step process *involving mutations*.
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Pauline Member (Idle past 3763 days) Posts: 283 Joined: |
perdition writes: Atheism believes that God does not exist, therefore it is a faith.
Not quite. Lacking a belief doesn't imply a belief in the opposite. I don't have to believe a god DOESN'T exist in order to not believe. For instance, I could just stop at, "I don't know," I'm still an athiest, meaning I don't actually believe, but I also don't actually disbelieve. I happen to believe a God is improbable, but I could easily be convinced if any evidence of an unambiguous nature were to turn up. If you don't see empirical evidence for the existence of God, that means you don't. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. And I assure you, you will never see empirical evidence for God's existence no matter how long you live. Intelligent men never try to prove that God exists using scientific experiments because thats impossible. And foolish men take this as evidence for the absence of God in the real world. As humans are weak, our logic cannot comprehend the supralogical. Faith is a big part of creationism. On the flip side, scientific experiments can never disprove the existence of God either. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given. Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 312 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Okay, so please explain to me how it might have occurred naturally. Actually, let me be specific: how do you explain the occurance of action potential generation/conduction in a pure naturalist fashion without the intervention of intelligence? Evolution. I'm glad we sorted that out.
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Izanagi Member (Idle past 5244 days) Posts: 263 Joined: |
I have to say, I was a bit daunted by your post. But after slogging through cardiac action potential and its various phases, the potassium channels, arrhythmia, calcium channels, etc., I think I have a handle on your question. It may not be as detailed as you may like, but I'll try my best.
Nerves are not involved in generating heartbeat, FYI. It is the leaky sodium ion channels housed in the plasma membranes of auto-rhythmic cardiac muscle cells that "generate" action potentials/electric impulses which translate as heartbeat when they are received by cardiac muscle.
Forgive my ignorance. It's been awhile since I've read up on the heart.
I just want to highlight the fact (and this cannot be denied) that action potential will not be produced if one of the parts does not exist/cooperate.
Action potential is the passage of ions through the cell membrane. Although the membrane is semi-permeable, the cell membrane prevents the diffusion of polar solutes across the membrane. This gives the cell the control of movement through the membrane through the pores and gates. Now the ion channels are essentially proteins formed into pores that can control the passage of the small voltage gradient. Wouldn't it be logical to think that a small mutation would have changed some of the pores that allowed some substance to pass through a transmembrane protein into a pore that allowed ions to pass through? And assuming that it provided an evolutionary advantage, it wouldn't be illogical to think that cells would begin to carry this mutation over time. Whatever the original evolutionary advantage was for action potential, there is an added advantage as it relates to communication between cells. Consider that the first single-celled organisms that grouped together needed a way to communicate, action potential offered a ready option. Communication by action potential is quick, about 1/3 the speed of sound, compared to using alternative methods. For multi-cellular organisms, the evolutionary advantage of action potential in intercellular communication is too great to ignore, which is why nearly all multi-cellular organisms use action potential as a means of communication between cells.
Now, going back to the heart, here are some differences I’ve gathered that make heart muscle structurally and functionally different from skeletal muscle...
First, skeletal and cardiac muscles are very similar with regards to striations and contractions. The primary structural proteins of both skeletal and cardiac muscles are actin and myosin. The difference is that cardiac muscles may be branched rather than linear and longitudinal. Like skeletal muscles, cardiac muscles initiate action potential through the entry of sodium ions across the sarcolemma. Cardiac muscles, however require extracellular calcium ions for contraction to occur. The point is that skeletal muscle and cardiac muscle are similar and cardiac muscle can be seen as the intermediate between skeletal muscle and smooth muscle. In fact, it may be that cardiac muscles are the next evolutionary step between skeletal and smooth muscle but that's just my own thoughts there.
Difference 1. Unlike skeletal muscle cells , heart muscle cells have leaky sodium channels
Do you mean "leaky" potassium channels? You never mentioned "leaky" sodium channels.Ramification 1. Heart muscle cells generate their own action potential rhythmatically I'm sorry, I don't see how "leaky" potassium channels create the heart's rhythm. The rhythm of the heart (here, I'm assuming you mean heartbeat) is set by the pacemaker cells which are typically the cells that undergo depolarization the fastest, right? Those cells are typically found in the SA Node, right?
Difference 2. Unlike skeletal muscle, heart muscle cells have less extensive Sarcoplasmic Reticulum and no Cisternae. (for clarification, SR stores and releases Ca++, and Cisternae are balls of SR filled with Ca++)
This is what you might find if you conjecture that cardiac muscles evolved from smooth muscle. Smooth muscles do not rely on action potential for contraction. Because smooth muscles are ill-suited to work as a heart, there is an evolutionary advantage in a mutation that changes smooth muscle into cardiac muscle as smooth muscles contract slowly and may hold the contraction for prolonged periods. More constant, consistent pumping means nutrients are consistently flowing which allows for sustained physical activity. Cardiac muscles evolving into skeletal muscle would be the next step as endoskeletons began to form.
Ramification 2. Responsible for slow onset of contraction and prolonged contraction phase Difference 3. Desmosomes and gap junctions connect heart cells (none of these occur in skeletal muscle)
Again, this takes advantage of the fact that action potential is the fastest way for cells to communicate with each other. Compare that with releasing hormones to begin contractions, there is an evolutionary advantage in mutations that allow cardiac muscles to utilize action potential better than it was previously.
Ramification 3. If one heart cell generates action potential, eeevery one else gets the message and guess what, all cells contract in unison. (If skeletal muscle was wired in this fashion, we would never be able to make a precise eye muscle movement) These differences collectively add to the one effect: long refractory period. Why do we need a long refractory period anyway? Well, having a long refractory period prevents conditions like tetanus and treppe where multiple successive contractions result in abnormally strong contractions. Therefore, the heart is not susceptible to such conditions.(How can you not call this intelligent design?)
You are essentially saying that God made the heart the way it is to prevent tetanus but I could just as simply ask: why didn't God not create the bacteria that causes tetanus in the first place? You are also making a logical fallacy by saying correlation implies causation. Just because tetanus is likely prevented by the way our hearts are constructed does not mean that was the reason for why our hearts are the way it is. The fact that the way the heart is might prevent tetanus would just an additional evolutionary advantage, but the more significant advantages are that our hearts allow for sustained activity, more rapid movement, a larger size, and better nutrient transport. Evolution, in fact, accounts for the development of the heart since any mutation of the heart that confers advantages for an organism that other organisms in a population would not have would make that particular organism better fit than the rest and likely more reproductively successful. Thus we have those advantages simply because the mutations created organisms that survived better in their environment.
It does. If there was no programming, there’s no point in having cardiac muscle. We might as well use skeletal muscle in the heart.
I conjecture that smooth muscle gave rise to cardiac muscle. Consider that modern invertebrates utilize smooth muscle, and considering it is the simplest of all muscle groups, it's likely that the earliest invertebrates also utilized smooth muscle. Mutations that gradually changed smooth muscle into cardiac muscles would give certain invertebrates an evolutionary advantage as they could achieve greater size and sustain longer durations of movement as well as more rapid movement.
This is evidence of design. Design demands intelligence and foreknowledge. God is the source of intelligence since nature cannot program itself.
Nature cannot program itself, but that doesn't mean that there is no underlying order to it. Don't confuse apparent chaos to actual chaos; that's a big problem with many creationists. The Theory of Evolution states the underlying order are the mutations that give rise to variations and the environment which determines which variations are of a stronger fitness, weaker fitness, or of a neutral fitness. That means that while there is no plan, there is a method to the madness. It's similar to the weather systems. At first glance, it may seem like chaos but humanity can predict the weather with relative accuracy (weatherman jokes aside) because we perceive the underlying order beneath the apparent chaos. We understand how the water cycle, ocean temperatures, prevailing wind currents, etc all affect the weather. Evolution is similar in that it explains the underlying order beneath the apparent chaos.
The ultimate programmer is God. He does not require a programmer since He is eternal. I argue that without intelligence, intricacy and complexity cannot be attained.
Yet the weather systems are intricate and complex. Did they happen without a creator? Is God out there right now controlling the weather? Intricate and complex systems can arise out of the interaction of rather simplistic parts. We understand gravity and its effect on mass and force. We understand and inertia and the conservation of momentum. Yet if a strong wind pushes a teetering rock down a mountain, we can't predict which rocks will be dislodged or how each and every rock will fall in a rockslide. A rockslide is an intricate and complex system that arises because of simplistic parts.
My original comment I can’t see how mutations bring about a positive effect was of pure curiosity
Mutations in the genome aren't inherently positive or negative. It's the environment that determines which mutation is of greatest benefit to an organism. Mutations can create the different parts of a heart, but it is the environment the organism with the mutations is in that determines if the mutation is beneficial to the survival and fitness of the organism.
Anthropomorphism is how humans understand and explain inanimate/non-living entities. It is the basis for the ontological argument for the existence of God.
Anthropomorphism may be how the majority of humans understand and explain inanimate/non-living entities, but it has no place in science. Astrophysicists do not attribute intelligence or emotions to Jupiter. Astrophysicists are not saying that Jupiter is where it is because it wants to be there. They describe the forces involved and how they interact to produce a model which describes the orbit of Jupiter. No anthropomophisizing involved. And if anthropomorphism is the ontological basis for the existence of God, then I can see why scientists reject that argument. After all, if I can conceive of a Flying Spaghetti Monster, and I can, does that mean he exists? As I've written a lot, I'll just conclude here. The parts that you addressed in your post about the heart can be explained by evolution. Ion channels could have easily mutated from channels that processed other materials. While I couldn't tell you the evolutionary advantage for a single celled organism (I could think about it, I suppose), I can tell you that action potential does confer a great advantage for multi-cellular organisms for inter-cellular communication. Mutations in smooth muscles to create cardiac muscles would increase the fitness of an organism as would an adaptation to take advantage of action potential in producing heart rhythms. As you can see, with each successive mutation, the heart has grown more and more complex. This shoots down the idea that complexity and intricacy require an intelligence. All that is required are small changes that produce an advantage in the environment. The Theory of Evolution, in a nutshell, has no difficulty addressing the evolution of the heart.
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Dr. Sing writes: Okay, so please explain to me how it might have occurred naturally. The short answer is the one Dr Adequate just gave you: evolution. The slightly longer answer is that any mutations that change the structure and makeup of the heart in a way that permits more efficient pumping will be selected for, those that do the opposite will be selected against, and that is all that is required for the design of the intricate interplay of signals and forces in the heart. --Percy
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