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Author
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Topic: Questions about the living cell
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SammyJean
Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 87 From: Fremont, CA, USA Joined: 03-28-2009
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Message 151 of 182 (529259)
10-08-2009 5:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 149 by NosyNed
10-08-2009 5:15 PM
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Re: Not the symbol?
The word use in the bible is the Greek word "stauros" the Greek translation of the word in the forth and fifth centuries before Jesus means an upright stake.The stauros of Christ is important in representing the sacrifice he made for our sins. But was it in the shape of a traditional Christian cross? The traditional 'cross' was not even used as a Christian symbol until the second century. Why not? Nowhere do I see god declare the 'cross' as a symbol that represents him. -------- PS:This is just my early training as a JW coming through. 
"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein "I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief." ~ Gerry Spence
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 149 by NosyNed, posted 10-08-2009 5:15 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2987 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
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Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
Calypsis writes: You can't dispel the truth. That's the way God made Laminin and when it is diagrammed it always looks like You can diagram it any way you want but does that make it any more true? I think the creationists own "Answer's in Genesis" says it best:
AIG writes: While I appreciate Mr. Giglio’s passion for the Word, I would suggest that this type of argument is not a good one to use. (See God’s Pharmacy for a similar example.) The main problem with this type of argument is that it appears that something outside of Scripture (in this case, laminin) is vital to know the truthfulness of a biblical truth. Laminin is used to prove a biblical truth. However, we should never use our fallible, finite understanding of the world to judge the infallible Word of God. What we observe in the world can certainly be used to confirm God’s Word (and it does), but our finite observations are not in a position to evaluate the infinite things of God. Only if we start with the Bible as our ultimate standard can we have a worldview that is rational and makes sense of the evidence (see Atheism: An Irrational Worldview and Evolution: The Anti-science). The structure of laminin was not made popular until 2008, yet I have no doubt that many Christians before that time have trusted the truth presented in Colossians 1:17 because it is God’s Word. Would Colossians 1:17 be any less true if laminin were not in the shape of a cross? No. If five years from now we discover that the laminin protein actually has a different shape (in fact, some electron micrographs of the protein do not resemble a cross at all, see here, p. 149), would that change the truth found in Colossians 1:17? No, because our belief in the truthfulness that Christ holds all things together should start and end with God’s Word alone! Or are you going to argue now against your own creationist sources?
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by Calypsis4, posted 10-08-2009 1:14 PM | | Calypsis4 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 156 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:03 AM | | DevilsAdvocate has seen this message but not replied |
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2987 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
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Message 153 of 182 (529284)
10-08-2009 6:20 PM
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Potassium channel in the shape of a swastica present in our brains.
BTW, just like the shape of the cross, the shape of the swastica is far older than that adopted by later cultures.
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan "It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 155 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:02 AM | | DevilsAdvocate has replied |
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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3834 days) Posts: 340 Joined: 05-29-2008
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Message 154 of 182 (529289)
10-08-2009 6:33 PM
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a cross is.. um... a very simple shape
When the debris settled on Ground Zero, it was found that two pieces of mangled girder still stood in the shape of a cross, and much wondering comment resulted. Since all architecture has always involved crossbeams, it would be surprising only if such a feature did not emerge. I admit that I would have been impressed if the wreckage had formed itself into a Star of David or a star or crescent, but there is no record of this ever having occurred anywhere, even in places where local people might have been impressed by it. - Christopher Hitchens
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5099 days) Posts: 428 Joined: 09-29-2009
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BTW, just like the shape of the cross, the shape of the swastica is far older than that adopted by later cultures You think THAT looks like a swastica? Nope. Even so, even if it did, where is an ancient text believed by millions that tells us that the 'swastica' is the symbol of some 'god' that holds all things together? Neither you nor your unbeleiving comrades will escape the truth of this matter no matter how hard you try.
[thumb=400]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h106/Martyrs5/laminin-large.jpg[/thumb=400]
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5099 days) Posts: 428 Joined: 09-29-2009
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Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
AIG: "While I appreciate Mr. Giglio’s passion for the Word, I would suggest that this type of argument is not a good one to use" AIG is wrong.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 152 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-08-2009 5:49 PM | | DevilsAdvocate has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 157 by Huntard, posted 10-09-2009 9:09 AM | | Calypsis4 has not replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2181 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
Calypsis4 writes: AIG is wrong.
No, you are! Constructive debating for the win!
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:03 AM | | Calypsis4 has not replied |
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: 07-14-2003
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Methanol! The sign of the LORD
Doesn't look much like a cross to me. This molecule:
H
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H-C-H
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O
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H looks far more like a cross. It's methanol. So far we've found your cross in a molecule vital to the formation and propagation and a substance of which washed up drunks are particularly fond. Where else does the LORD promote his existence? Should we be looking for in syphilis? Or in hemorrhoids? Or, perhaps, should be vaguely sensible and dismiss this as the silliness it is?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 155 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:02 AM | | Calypsis4 has replied |
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5099 days) Posts: 428 Joined: 09-29-2009
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Message 159 of 182 (529413)
10-09-2009 9:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 158 by Dr Jack
10-09-2009 9:21 AM
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Re: Methanol! The sign of the LORD
You're still missing the point. Like your comrades you don't WISH to get the point:
Science tells us: "The trimeric proteins form a CROSS, giving a structure that can bind to other cell membrane and extracellular matrix molecules."M. A. Haralson and John R. Hassell (1995). Extracellular matrix: a practical approach. Ithaca, N.Y: IRL Press. ISBN 0-19-963220-0. They were not 'talking religion'. They were scientists making an observation.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 158 by Dr Jack, posted 10-09-2009 9:21 AM | | Dr Jack has replied |
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: 07-14-2003
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Re: Methanol! The sign of the LORD
So you accept that methanol is also the sign of the LORD, as well as the protein critical to cancer that you're so fond of? Yes, it looks a bit like a cross, although as demonstrated by the actual pictures earlier in this thread, it doesn't look very like a cross. It's the notion that this transparently fragile connection means anything that is absurd. Also I note that quote you're fond of throwing around is on the wikipedia page on Laminins, referenced to the book you're citing it as a quote from. Have you read the book? Or are you merely reciting from the wikipedia page and misattributing it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:32 AM | | Calypsis4 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 164 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 10:35 AM | | Dr Jack has not replied |
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: 07-14-2003
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Lying with citations again
calpysis4 writes: Science tells us: "The trimeric proteins form a CROSS, giving a structure that can bind to other cell membrane and extracellular matrix molecules."M. A. Haralson and John R. Hassell (1995). Extracellular matrix: a practical approach. Ithaca, N.Y: IRL Press. ISBN 0-19-963220-0. They were not 'talking religion'. They were scientists making an observation. Ah, yes, this line does not appear in that book. So, in fact, as I suspected you've quoted from Wikipedia and misattributed it to Haralson and Hassell. Tut, tut, tut. So are you being deliberately dishonest? Or do you just not have a clue? Edited by Mr Jack, : -ed
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:32 AM | | Calypsis4 has not replied |
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 5102 days) Posts: 263 Joined: 09-15-2009
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Re: Methanol! The sign of the LORD
It wouldn't matter if it looked like Mickey Mouse, you bypassed the natural explanations and went to using Scripture to support it as if it had predicted the laminin and its shape all along. If you believe that the Bible made the prediction of the shape of the laminin and its location, then produce an instance where a creationist "scientist" used Scripture to make a prediction about what we could find in a cell, did research, and produced his findings that it was right where Scripture said it would be. This should be quite possible because you have consistently held to the belief that the Bible is a resource for scientific research. If you are right, show us. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given. Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:32 AM | | Calypsis4 has not replied |
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: 07-14-2003
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Message 163 of 182 (529433)
10-09-2009 10:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 136 by Calypsis4
10-08-2009 1:14 PM
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Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
You can't dispel the truth. That's the way God made Laminin and when it is diagrammed it always looks like: Gosh! You can use Google image search. Love the way you omitted the ones that don't support your view.
As for the fact that Laminin can degenerate (cancer), so what? That's not what I said. Laminins are key in the formation and propogation of cancer. They do not "degenerate" to do this. Your little "crosses" carry right on in their usual form.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by Calypsis4, posted 10-08-2009 1:14 PM | | Calypsis4 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 165 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 10:41 AM | | Dr Jack has not replied |
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5099 days) Posts: 428 Joined: 09-29-2009
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Message 164 of 182 (529434)
10-09-2009 10:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 160 by Dr Jack
10-09-2009 9:37 AM
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Re: Methanol! The sign of the LORD
Yes, it looks a bit like a cross, although as demonstrated by the actual pictures earlier in this thread, it doesn't look very like a cross That conclusion was not mine but secular scientists. It doesn't look a 'bit' like a cross. Stop being dishonest. They said it correctly but you don't like it. I have nothing to say about the methanol. What point is there? The point I've made from the beginning is that there is an ancient text that tells us that the One who died on the cross 'holds all thing' together (Colossians) and 'it just to happens' that Laminin is (when diagramed) in the shape of the cross. The fact that in its function it bends and twists to other shapes is unimportant.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 160 by Dr Jack, posted 10-09-2009 9:37 AM | | Dr Jack has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 174 by Coyote, posted 10-10-2009 3:06 PM | | Calypsis4 has not replied |
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5099 days) Posts: 428 Joined: 09-29-2009
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Message 165 of 182 (529436)
10-09-2009 10:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 163 by Dr Jack
10-09-2009 10:33 AM
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Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
Laminins are key in the formation and propogation of cancer. They do not "degenerate" to do this. Your little "crosses" carry right on in their usual form. Mocker. I am going to avoid you from now on. The very reason for sickness and disease in our world to begin with is because of human sin. Our sins are the reason why Jesus died on the cross to begin with. The cross is a picture of God's hatred for human sin in the first place. Jesus suffered in our place for all we've done wrong. So why would the fact that Laminin is subject to disease of any kind detract from the eternal truth that God gave us about the matter.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by Dr Jack, posted 10-09-2009 10:33 AM | | Dr Jack has not replied |
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