Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is God Self-Evident
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 1 of 155 (521949)
08-30-2009 6:28 PM


Recently, I started thinking about God's existence in different terms. To me, if (a) God(s) existed, then their existence would be self-evident in everything that they created. Anyone who's ever read a fantasy book with a fully functioning religion (like the Wheel of Time) can understand what I'm talking about. If God existed, then there would be just the one God whom everyone worshipped, while just debating how to pray correctly until told to. Etc., etc., etc. The bottom line is, if God exists, then why doesn't everyone believe in him? (i.e. why is it "faith" rather than "fact")

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
- Stephen Roberts
I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in
- Dan Foutes
"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 8:17 AM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied
 Message 13 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-01-2009 10:12 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied
 Message 123 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2009 1:53 PM Teapots&unicorns has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 155 (521973)
08-31-2009 4:44 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Is God Self-Evident thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 155 (522107)
09-01-2009 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns
08-30-2009 6:28 PM


T&u writes:
Recently, I started thinking about God's existence in different terms. To me, if (a) God(s) existed, then their existence would be self-evident in everything that they created.
Why?
The bottom line is, if God exists, then why doesn't everyone believe in him? (i.e. why is it "faith" rather than "fact")
Perhaps it's because he choses not to be self-evident? A common enough view of the Christian God is that he does precisely this as part of an overall plan in which folk are given the opportunity to decide whether they want to spend eternity with God and what he represents or whether they don't. If they could see God exactly as he is then their ability not to believe what he says would be fatally compromised. And along with it, their ability to chose not to spend eternity with him and what he represents.
Biblical faith is based on evidence: God reveals his existance to the person that he exists so his existance becomes fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 08-30-2009 6:28 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2009 9:19 AM iano has replied
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2009 9:24 AM iano has replied
 Message 6 by Shield, posted 09-01-2009 9:26 AM iano has replied
 Message 8 by Perdition, posted 09-01-2009 11:10 AM iano has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 4 of 155 (522116)
09-01-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
09-01-2009 8:17 AM


Biblical faith is based on evidence: God reveals his existance to the person that he exists so his existance becomes fact.
So you have to faith in order to see the evidence that a god exists?
Seems kind of circular doesn't it?
You might as well say that your faith is evidence that a god exists. Then we get back into the argument for subjective evidence. Which isn't evidence at all really, is it?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 8:17 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 10:35 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 5 of 155 (522118)
09-01-2009 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
09-01-2009 8:17 AM


Hey Iano.
Perhaps it's because he choses not to be self-evident? A common enough view of the Christian God is that he does precisely this as part of an overall plan in which folk are given the opportunity to decide whether they want to spend eternity with God and what he represents or whether they don't.
I still fail to see why he would want this decision to be made on the basis of faith rather than fact?
If they could see God exactly as he is then their ability not to believe what he says would be fatally compromised. And along with it, their ability to chose not to spend eternity with him and what he represents.
Not if we have genuine free-will. Not if we are genuinely capable of being "evil".
Biblical faith is based on evidence: God reveals his existance to the person that he exists so his existance becomes fact.
Well..... So some believe.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 8:17 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 6:13 PM Straggler has replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2863 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 6 of 155 (522119)
09-01-2009 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
09-01-2009 8:17 AM


A common enough view of the Christian God is that he does precisely this as part of an overall plan in which folk are given the opportunity to decide whether they want to spend eternity with God and what he represents or whether they don't.
Except that they are really not offered that choice. Hundreds of millions of people have never heard of god/Jesus.
Just a couple of thousands of years ago, NO one knew about god/Jesus. They had no way of choosing simply because they did not know. Did god send these people to hell?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 8:17 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by tuffers, posted 09-01-2009 9:52 AM Shield has not replied
 Message 20 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 10:40 AM Shield has not replied

  
tuffers
Member (Idle past 5276 days)
Posts: 92
From: Norwich, UK
Joined: 07-20-2009


Message 7 of 155 (522121)
09-01-2009 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Shield
09-01-2009 9:26 AM


Hi rbp
Better be careful what you say. For example, there is no evidence that the aboriginies of Australia were never told about Jesus before the arrival of Europeans. It could even be the case that the kangeroos were some kind of prophets and foretold Jesus's coming. Then it would be entirely the fault of the aboriginies for not believing and they'd deserve their just punishment of eternal torment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Shield, posted 09-01-2009 9:26 AM Shield has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 8 of 155 (522130)
09-01-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
09-01-2009 8:17 AM


A common enough view of the Christian God is that he does precisely this as part of an overall plan in which folk are given the opportunity to decide whether they want to spend eternity with God and what he represents or whether they don't.
This sounds a lot like "Let's Make a Deal." The Bible is saying, "You've already won the toaster and the fridge, but you can trade it all in for what's behind door number 3. So, what's your choice?"
Can you really make an honest choice if you're not being shown what your options are? If God decides to hide himself and only reveal what he wants, then we're making a decision based on incomplete knwoledge. So, basically, God just wants us to make a guess as to whether we should believe in him or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 8:17 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-01-2009 3:56 PM Perdition has not replied
 Message 21 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 10:45 AM Perdition has replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 9 of 155 (522165)
09-01-2009 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Perdition
09-01-2009 11:10 AM


A Great Site
This is a great site. Check out the link- it's got a really good view on this topic:
Argument From Locality
Edited by Teapots&unicorns, : No reason given.
Edited by Teapots&unicorns, : No reason given.
Edited by Teapots&unicorns, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Perdition, posted 09-01-2009 11:10 AM Perdition has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2009 5:58 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 155 (522201)
09-01-2009 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Teapots&unicorns
09-01-2009 3:56 PM


Re: A Great Site
I read the link and I am unimpressed.
It's whole premise is to speculate on the mind of God and then demonstrate why that presumed thinking is fallacious.
If it wants to appeal to the converted (i.e. atheists) then it might do so to some extent. But few thinking theists would give these arguments much credence on the basis that if the premise is flawed so are the conclusions.
Some less thinking theists might be stumped. But frankly they are not usually difficult to stump anyway.
Sorry............

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-01-2009 3:56 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 11 of 155 (522203)
09-01-2009 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
09-01-2009 9:24 AM


Straggler writes:
Hey Iano.
Hi there Straggler..
I still fail to see why he would want this decision to be made on the basis of faith rather than fact
Let's have a look see. We're assuming God exists and we're taking a look at the (posited) mechanism of salvation.
Fact: God exists.
Fact: There is absolute right and wrong. What he says is right is right and what he says is wrong is wrong.
Fact: He lets you know what right is and what wrong is by way of conscience.
Fact: you don't need to believe in Gods existance/existance of absolute right and wrong to know what absolute right and wrong is.
Fact: This knowledge is suppressible by your will. If you will to suppress it consciences restraining influence is cut and you will do what is evil. If you don't suppress the conscience you will be restrained from doing evil by it.
Fact: Your will is a key element in your doing evil or no.
Fact: The are two destinations to be arrived at wrt to the evil you (and I) engage in. You can either end up despairing at yourself and the rotteness that you (hopefully) come to realise lies at the core of yourself. Or you can avoid arrival at this conclusion by continued suppression of the fact that evil is central to your actions and motivations.
God is the one who's attempting to steer you to the conclusion that you are rotten/hopeless/lost. If, via that mechanism, you come to believe that you are rotten/hopeless/lost then you will believe both God and the facts about yourself. All without having to believe in Gods existance.
No blind belief style faith is required. Just the kind of faith that is underscored by the facts. The decision isn't that you believe in God, it's that you believe Gods argument - even though you don't yet believe in God.
Later dude...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2009 9:24 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 09-01-2009 6:37 PM iano has replied
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 09-02-2009 12:12 AM iano has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 155 (522205)
09-01-2009 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by iano
09-01-2009 6:13 PM


Hi there Straggler..
Woohoo! I for one am glad to have you back in the EvC fold.
Let's have a look see. We're assuming God exists and we're taking a look at the (posited) mechanism of salvation.
Fact: God exists.
Fact: There is absolute right and wrong. What he says is right is right and what he says is wrong is wrong.
Erm OK. For the sake of argument if nothing else I will accept this I think? But I am still completely bemused as to why faith rather than fact is God's chosen means of enlightenment, salvation and whatever else?
Are you just saying it this way because he says that is what he wants? Is that what you are saying?
Later dude...
I have enough EvC stuff on my plate at the moment!! But you are my favourite theistic opponent so I felt compelled to at least question your answers!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 6:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 10:22 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 155 (522226)
09-01-2009 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns
08-30-2009 6:28 PM


Food for thought
The bottom line is, if God exists, then why doesn't everyone believe in him? (i.e. why is it "faith" rather than "fact")
As the argument goes, God is supposed to be revealed in the human conscience, in nature, and by prophetic revelation. If you can't see that, then that is supposed to be indicative of a "hardening of your heart" and that you are not earnestly seeking, as Jesus said, "Seek and you will find."
Rather conveniently, if you don't accept that as a plausible answer, it is somehow attributed as a deficiency on your part that you don't know God. This is because you are disobedient and sinful. All the trappings of God's mystery is supposed to be for some unknown cosmic purpose. You are expected to just accept it and to rely on faith to sustain you.
It very well could be, but isn't that somewhat unfair to impart certain deficiencies in your creation only to turn around and blame the deficiency on the created rather than, say, the Creator?
I don't know, maybe I'm just talking outta my ass...

"Don't ask me who's influenced me. A lion is made up of the lambs he's digested, and I've been reading all my life." - Charles de Gaulle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 08-30-2009 6:28 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 155 (522235)
09-02-2009 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by iano
09-01-2009 6:13 PM


I'll start by pointing ut that your "facts" are better labelled assumptions.
quote:
Let's have a look see. We're assuming God exists and we're taking a look at the (posited) mechanism of salvation.
Fact: God exists.
Fact: There is absolute right and wrong. What he says is right is right and what he says is wrong is wrong.
Which is it ? Is there absolute right and wrong or just decree from God ?
quote:
Fact: He lets you know what right is and what wrong is by way of conscience.
Since your God seems to be unspeakable evil to me I think you have a problem there.
quote:
Fact: you don't need to believe in Gods existance/existance of absolute right and wrong to know what absolute right and wrong is.
Fact: Nobody knows what absolute right and wrong are. The best you can get is a consensus opinion, and that will only agree on broad details.
quote:
Fact: This knowledge is suppressible by your will. If you will to suppress it consciences restraining influence is cut and you will do what is evil. If you don't suppress the conscience you will be restrained from doing evil by it.
At least you acknowledge that much.
quote:
Fact: Your will is a key element in your doing evil or no.
Fact: The are two destinations to be arrived at wrt to the evil you (and I) engage in. You can either end up despairing at yourself and the rotteness that you (hopefully) come to realise lies at the core of yourself. Or you can avoid arrival at this conclusion by continued suppression of the fact that evil is central to your actions and motivations.
My conscience says that your "fact" is the lie of a sick and evil religion.
quote:
God is the one who's attempting to steer you to the conclusion that you are rotten/hopeless/lost. If, via that mechanism, you come to believe that you are rotten/hopeless/lost then you will believe both God and the facts about yourself. All without having to believe in Gods existance.
It seems pretty clear that your "God" is on the side of evil. And what you are describing is a standard cult tactic.
quote:
o blind belief style faith is required. Just the kind of faith that is underscored by the facts. The decision isn't that you believe in God, it's that you believe Gods argument - even though you don't yet believe in God.
Except that blind belief IS needed - and likely a very strong one. Certainly I would need to suppress my conscience to accept your religion. Which shows that your "facts" are not all facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by iano, posted 09-01-2009 6:13 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-02-2009 9:42 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 22 by iano, posted 09-02-2009 10:58 AM PaulK has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 15 of 155 (522272)
09-02-2009 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by PaulK
09-02-2009 12:12 AM


PaulK writes:
Since your God seems to be unspeakable evil to me I think you have a problem there.
Answer the following questions and points please, if God is Evil.
1. From a Humanistic or Agnostic standpoint, how do you decide what evil is or is not?
2 Have you ever exterminated a colony of ants in your front yard?
If so, on what moral principle do you accomplish such actions.
3. Have you ever eracticated a buch of flies in your house by insceticide or fly strip, or fly swat? If so, what gives you the right to take thier lives and more importantly, ON WHAT MORAL principle do you accomplish such actions. In other words, give a moral explanation that would allow you to accomplish such actions.
4. Is it ok to take the lives of animals that create over population, on what moral principle do YOU agree with such actions and support it. In other words, it appears you are IGNORING your own self proclaimed immoral behavior and denouncing God.
5. Place a check mark beside (or provide another)the actions that allow your actions but not Gods. Is it:
A. Superior intelligence.
B. Superior Power
c. species tolerance, etc, etc, etc.
As I see it you have only a few logical possibilites. You can become absolutely consistent in your own actions concerning all life.
give up trying to decide what is eveil or not.
Or you can quit condemining a God, which you dont even believe in and have no logical or moral principle to proceed with.
which horn of the delima do you want?
Careful how you answer you can get yourself in a world of hurt logically.
EMA
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 09-02-2009 12:12 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-02-2009 10:18 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 26 by PaulK, posted 09-02-2009 1:04 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024