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Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
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Author | Topic: If you believe the human genome is "designed" why is it such a mess? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
In several threads I have seen posts referring to the "apparent design" of the human genome in particular because it is "complex". The truth is, the genome is a mess...retroelements, microsatellites, duplicated segments, pseudogenes. Compared to ours, bacterial genomes are a like BMW versus a Yugo in terms of efficiency. It seems the IDers feel their "intelligent designer" is a completely incompentent engineer.
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nos482 Inactive Member |
quote: You'll probably get an answer like it is because of the Fall of Man that it is a mess. That Adam and Eve(His second wife) were created perfectly without flaw. They are saying that it is our own fault for being a mess.
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: Actually Fred Kelly has used a reply like that to me when I asked him about the inbreeding and rapid accumulation of deleterious homozygous alleles that would have occured in Adam and Eves family. He claimed that they had no mutations and had perfect genomes, and that all of the current mutations and flaws occured after "the fall". Interesting part is that, with all of his calculations re: mutations and back-calculations concerning the age of man, that he has not used calculated data from this supposition. Maybe it is because the answer did not come out like he wanted. On a side note, I have recently downloaded his comments concerning the nature paper and the harmful mutation rate and will try to look into it again with the additional papers. I have another of Dr. Crow's papers on the subject somewhere that I will re-read as well. He and I went around and around on this on the yahoo CvsE board a few years ago. ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5872 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I think this idea - the Fall as the explanation for screwed-up genomes, etc - may have been popularized by Henry Morris in "Studies in the Bible and Science". He probably wasn't the first to push the idea, but was certainly the most well known.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3823 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
The party line is that after the world was cursed (a position I do not subscribe to) everything went downhill. This is a fix-all explanation for Creationists. It also precludes evolution.
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: They even say that this is the result of entropy and 2LOT. I picked on Fred earlier so I will give him his due here. Fred, to the best of my knowledge, has never claimed that evolution violates 2LOT. Although I still think that he is wrong about the info theory and mutational debate, and about the age of the human species as well. ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5195 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
quote: It occured to me that Haldanes Dilemma (or whatever) actually presents a worse conundrum to the created kind concept than evolution. Why? Well if there are only 1667 fbm in 10 my, then how do creationists, who use this argument explain the diversity seen in created kinds in only 4,500 years? If man & chimp can't have a common ancestor, then surely feral cats & lions are even more problematic. Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: You know Mark, I never thought of it from that angle before. One reason may be that there is a marked difference between inter and intraspecies genetic differences (at least that is a valid scientific aspect), and I am refering to closely related species. However, with limits such as Fred is touting I think that you still may have a very valid point. I am more a physical biochemist, any computational molecular biologists out there familiar enough with the current approaches to take a crack at this? ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz Fixed UBB quote code - Adminnemooseus [This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 09-04-2002]
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
^ I'm a computational moelcular biologist.
All I'll add is that we'll need to see a lot more genomes to (a) Reclassify life. Eg: the Linnean family could be redefined to indicate no new protein families for example. If the old guard is too scared and resistive the new gaurd will simply come up with a completely new classification system. (b) See what the differences between man and chimps and tigers and cheetahs really are. %DNA differences mean almost completely nothing. It is genomic protein family content which is the imporant issue. But the issue of genetic loss vs gain will always be there to haunt us although to a certain extent the vestigal pseudo-genes will help in this respect.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
Why bother sequencing more genomes? In both a and b of your two part post you claim to "know" the answer already. That is not a particularly impressive scientific approach to any question.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
Ah..but then the IDers and creationists must worship bacteria as they are not nearly the mess we are in genomic terms. Bacteria then must have never "fallen" or were so great that they got back up
Viruses to for that matter though it is a topic of debate as to whether they can be considered "alive". The implications are that rather than focusing on the heart as the organ of compassion and love, they will have to turn to the colon as it has a much higher bacterial content and therefore must be "holier". cheers,Mammuthus quote:
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nos482 Inactive Member |
Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Ah..but then the IDers and creationists must worship bacteria as they are not nearly the mess we are in genomic terms. Bacteria then must have never "fallen" or were so great that they got back up Viruses to for that matter though it is a topic of debate as to whether they can be considered "alive". The implications are that rather than focusing on the heart as the organ of compassion and love, they will have to turn to the colon as it has a much higher bacterial content and therefore must be "holier". cheers,Mammuthus So, that is where the term "Holy Sh*t!" comes from.
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6475 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
So, that is where the term "Holy Sh*t!" comes from. [/B][/QUOTE]
LOL!!!
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: Actually Colin Patterson has been discussing this, relationships based on the molecular aspects although I think that you are wrong about the no new protein families , as a natural consequence of Descent with Modification. The sad part is that he is constantly mis-interpreted or misquoted by many of the older creationist crowd (ICR for example) as saying that Natural Selection destroyed classification or was incompatable with classification.
quote: Actually I was refering mainly to proteomics due to the sometimes larger effects of a single mutation than expected under the simple forms of the one gene one protein hypothesis. ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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Dr_Tazimus_maximus Member (Idle past 3217 days) Posts: 402 From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA Joined: |
quote: Actually, wouldn't that make the colon the seat of the soul. And that would make the sphincter the mouth. Gives a totally new meaning to speaking something into existence. OK, now that i have gone totally into the three and four year old potty humor I need to get back to work and do something usefull. Thanks for the laughs, I needed them today . ------------------"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur Taz
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