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Author Topic:   Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 316 of 386 (578305)
09-01-2010 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by John 10:10
09-01-2010 10:09 AM


Re: Those who are being saved.
quote:
Bart Ehrman never found true faith in our Lord Jesus Christ through the gift of His Spirit, relying instead on intellectual beliefs that had no substance. Instead of pressing on into the reality of God who rewards those who dilligently seek Him (Heb 11:6), Bart turned back to unbelief. Bart never found the Lord who does this:
That's a cop out. This thread is not about belief, it is about the book and what is/was written. Either it stayed the same or it didn't. Evidence from Biblical scholars before Ehrman and who didn't lose faith show that the writings were changed and then scholars worked to change them back to what is believed to be the closest to an "original" we can get in some Bibles. Plus you're saying that the reality of the Bible is not the reality of God, but he's the God of the Bible and Christianity is a religion of the book.
Ehrman's book is about textual criticism, not belief. Textual criticism means comparing and contrasting various manuscripts in order to distinguish the original meaning. There is no mention of what one should or shouldn't believe in his book. If you disagree with his research, then show the evidence.
Was everybody inspired, whether to write, change or restore?
Did everybody have the authority whether to write, change or restore?
Quite frankly I'm glad to know that Paul didn't turn against women in 1 Corinthians 14:33-36.
KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all churches of the saints
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law
35 And if they will learn any thing let them ask their husbands at home for it is a shame for women to speak in the church
36 What came the word of God out from you or came it unto you only
Verses 34 and 35 don't fit in with the subject Paul is writing about. Paul is addressing prophecy in the church.
In various textual witnesses the verses were shuffled around. They weren't always placed in the same place. Sometimes it was after verse 33 as shown above and sometimes it was after verse 40. This leads some scholars to feel that they were marginal notes dealing with cultural issues of the day. They weren't Paul's words. Later scribes put them in as part of the letter possibly influenced by 1 Timothy 2 which is not written by Paul.
This type of change happened many times. Marginal notes became part of the text. Not necessarily the intention of the writer(s).
So how much is sanctioned by God?
Edited by purpledawn, : Clarification

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by John 10:10, posted 09-01-2010 10:09 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by John 10:10, posted 09-01-2010 12:19 PM purpledawn has replied
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 317 of 386 (578310)
09-01-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Theodoric
09-01-2010 11:26 AM


Re: Those who are being saved.
I've read enough of Ehrman's writings and testimony to know that he never found the Lord of Acts 2, forever stuck in trying to accept and understand the veracity of the Gospels. His wife accepts his unbelief, while she enjoys the substance of her faith in our Lord. Sad story!
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Theodoric, posted 09-01-2010 11:26 AM Theodoric has replied

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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 318 of 386 (578318)
09-01-2010 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by purpledawn
09-01-2010 11:45 AM


Re: Those who are being saved.
The Acts 2 experience that has been happening to Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ for the last 2000 years confirms that the Bible is authoritive and truly inspired, confirming all the Bible prophesies which led up to Acts 2.
Yes, "it is about the book and what is/was written." Either what has been happening to Believers for 2000 years confirms the truth of what was written then, or it doesn't. Billions of Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ that have entered into the Acts 2 experience know the Bible is authoritive and truly inspired. Billions of unbelievers say it doesn't. Maybe will just have to leave it at that.
Peace
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 319 of 386 (578321)
09-01-2010 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by John 10:10
09-01-2010 11:53 AM


Re: Those who are being saved.
Can you discount anything he has written? Any evidence what he says is not based on facts or evidence?
And please no more of the lame biblical passages. If I want bad poetry I will listen to Lady Gaga.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 320 of 386 (578363)
09-01-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by John 10:10
09-01-2010 12:19 PM


Authority and Inspiration
quote:
The Acts 2 experience that has been happening to Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ for the last 2000 years confirms that the Bible is authoritive and truly inspired, confirming all the Bible prophesies which led up to Acts 2.
Yes, "it is about the book and what is/was written." Either what has been happening to Believers for 2000 years confirms the truth of what was written then, or it doesn't. Billions of Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ that have entered into the Acts 2 experience know the Bible is authoritive and truly inspired. Billions of unbelievers say it doesn't. Maybe will just have to leave it at that.
This thread isn't about the truth of the Bible. It's about authority and inspiration. It doesn't matter if what the authors wrote is true or not.
Do we have what the authors wrote? No, we don't have the actual originals. We have some versions due to textual criticism take us back to the closest we have to an "original".
Playing the emotional experience card is exactly what charlatans do. "Don't look at the text and just listen to what I'm saying." That's how the snare people.
Understanding the reality of the Bible can help people make an informed choice instead of an emotional choice. Understanding the reality of the Bible can help people not get taken advantage of by an oppressive church.
I suggest that if you don't like textual criticism, that you don't participate in these types of discussions. You're not moving the discussion forward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by John 10:10, posted 09-01-2010 12:19 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by John 10:10, posted 09-01-2010 7:32 PM purpledawn has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 321 of 386 (578457)
09-01-2010 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by purpledawn
09-01-2010 3:54 PM


Re: Authority and Inspiration
quote:
This thread isn't about the truth of the Bible. It's about authority and inspiration. It doesn't matter if what the authors wrote is true or not.
Just where do you think authority and inspiration come from? You must think it comes from man, and not from something higher than man.
Yes, understanding the reality of the Bible can help people make an informed choice. But when you start out by saying/believing that it doesn't matter if what the authors wrote is true or not, how can you or anyone else possibly make an informed choice.
Either what the authors wrote in the Bible still happens to those whom God is calling to Himself, or it doesn't. Either God saves sinners, or He doesn't. That is the true reality that can help people make an informed choice, not by spending endless hours in textual criticisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by purpledawn, posted 09-01-2010 3:54 PM purpledawn has replied

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 322 of 386 (578635)
09-02-2010 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by John 10:10
09-01-2010 7:32 PM


Re: Authority and Inspiration
quote:
Just where do you think authority and inspiration come from? You must think it comes from man, and not from something higher than man.
That question doesn't make sense given what I said. Whether the Bible is authoritative and truly inspired is the point of the thread. The question has been several times, which version of the Bible is sanctioned by God?
quote:
Yes, understanding the reality of the Bible can help people make an informed choice. But when you start out by saying/believing that it doesn't matter if what the authors wrote is true or not, how can you or anyone else possibly make an informed choice.
So it is important that we know what was actually written before we can determine whether it is true. If a portion wasn't written by the original author, but is determine to be true, then does God sanction changing the text back to the oldest version or did he inspire the scribe to make the change and it should be left as is?
quote:
Either what the authors wrote in the Bible still happens to those whom God is calling to Himself, or it doesn't. Either God saves sinners, or He doesn't. That is the true reality that can help people make an informed choice, not by spending endless hours in textual criticisms.
Textual criticism is necessary to understand what the authors actually wrote. There's no way to know whether God saves sinners or not if you referring to the salvation after death.
If you're talking about someone changing their wrong behavior to right behavior, that happens in society without the Bible. Judaism inspires some to change, Buddhism inspires some to change, Islam inspires some to change, etc. Some are inspired to change and then find a religion to help them understand how to behave. Even religion free people are inspired to change their life to better behavior without religion. So that's not really a selling point for the authority or inspiration of the Bible or the "truth" for that matter.
Without man religion doesn't exist. Mankind gives religion its power. Mankind gives authority to the Bible(s). That's why there are so many different Bibles that are the "authority" for the various groups that use them.
If the KJV is translated from a flawed text, who sanctioned the translation? God or man?
You're not showing me that God; as opposed to theological issues, social issues, and political issues; inspired the writers. IMO, they were all sources for inspiration for the writers, the scribes, the translators, and the textual critics.
Playing on emotions and weaknesses is what pulls people into cults and religion if they weren't born into them.
Show me that Ehrman's facts are wrong.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 386 (580242)
09-08-2010 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by jar
08-29-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Source Of Inspiration
quote:
Are you saying that the Bible (as if The Bible existed) is authoritative and truly inspired because you need it to be authoritative and truly inspired?
Yes. I realize how this sounds. I believe that many Christians need to have some sort of verification that God actually exists. We can believe it until the cows come home, but we seek to verify and legitimize it because, without authenticity, the tenets of the religion and the reasons for the belief fall apart. My belief system is about more than just running around being an honorable adult boy scout!

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DPowell
Member (Idle past 4916 days)
Posts: 48
Joined: 04-27-2010


Message 324 of 386 (585267)
10-07-2010 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Theodoric
08-03-2009 8:51 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
I see that I am late in entering into this discussion, but I will take a crack at Theodoric's early post that seemed to carry some weight.
Each reference you make is simply explained by an understanding of how the Scriptures were preserved over time: in the company of prophets. No, an original manuscript would probably not have included Numbers 12:3 and Exodus 11:3-4; these are likely scribal emendations. The anachronisms are explained similarly. A reader a millennium after the death of Moses would not have known Laish by that name, but rather by the name of Dan...so a scribe make have taken some liberty to aid his reader. These things in themselves do not authoritatively overturn Mosaic authorship, nor do they take away from the inspiration of Scripture (when properly understood as the Holy Spirit's superintending the work of human authors in their original manuscripts).
Meanwhile, as far as attribution of authorship to Moses within the canon itself, go have a look at Exodus 17:14; Deuteronomy 31:24-26; Joshua 8:31, 23:6; 2 Kings 14:6; several passages in 2 Chronicles; Ezra 6:18; Nehemiah 8:1; Nehemiah 13:1; Mark 12:26; and Hebrews 9:19.
Edited by DPowell, : Grammar.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 325 of 386 (585282)
10-07-2010 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by DPowell
10-07-2010 12:47 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
quote:
Meanwhile, as far as attribution of authorship to Moses within the canon itself, go have a look at Exodus 17:14; Deuteronomy 31:24-26; Joshua 8:31, 23:6; 2 Kings 14:6; several passages in 2 Chronicles; Ezra 6:18; Nehemiah 8:1; Nehemiah 13:1; Mark 12:26; and Hebrews 9:19.
Exodus 17:14 is not speaking of the work we know as Exodus.
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."
The narrator is telling us that Moses was told to write about the battle with Amalek and his people.
As for the rest that refer to the book of the law, Law of Moses, or the book of the covenant; the text doesn't reflect that it is talking about the books containing those statements or the compilation containing those books.
Jewish tradition says that Moses wrote the first five books. Jewish tradition also says that the original scroll of the Torah and other holy writings were burned when the Temple was destroyed in 587 BCE based on the first century writing 4 Ezra 14:2-22. This is supposedly Ezra speaking to God.
[21] For thy law is burnt, therefore no man knoweth the things that are done of thee, or the work that shall begin.
[22] But if I have found grace before thee, send the Holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath been done in the world since the beginning, which were written in thy law, that men may find thy path, and that they which will live in the latter days may live.
In the book entitled "A History of the Jews" by Paul Johnson, Johnson notes that intellectual Jewish Reformers, about 170 bce, understood that the Law they had was not very old and did not go back to the time of Moses. (Page 101)
ABE: Literary and Historical Criticism of the Pentateuch
Edited by purpledawn, : ABE: Some light reading

The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin. --Gospel of Mary

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 326 of 386 (586282)
10-12-2010 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by purpledawn
09-01-2010 11:45 AM


Re: Those who are being saved.
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all churches of the saints
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law
35 And if they will learn any thing let them ask their husbands at home for it is a shame for women to speak in the church
36 What came the word of God out from you or came it unto you only
Verses 34 and 35 don't fit in with the subject Paul is writing about. Paul is addressing prophecy in the church.
Paul's Corinthain letter was written in response to a letter from the Corinthian church written to him.
If we had the writing that Paul was responding to, probably verses 36,37 would not seem out of place.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by purpledawn, posted 09-01-2010 11:45 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 327 of 386 (586301)
10-12-2010 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by jaywill
10-12-2010 10:45 AM


Re: Those who are being saved.
quote:
Paul's Corinthain letter was written in response to a letter from the Corinthian church written to him.
If we had the writing that Paul was responding to, probably verses 36,37 would not seem out of place.
Yes, it would be nice if we had all the letters written to Paul as well as his responses, but we don't so it is useless in this discussion.
Given Paul's more equal treatment of women in his writings, the verses don't fit and as I explained in Message 316, scholars feel the verses were later margin notes added to the text by scribes. When compared to other manuscripts, the verses weren't always placed in the same place and contradict earlier teachings in the same letter.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 328 of 386 (586320)
10-12-2010 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by purpledawn
09-01-2010 11:45 AM


Re: Those who are being saved.
In various textual witnesses the verses were shuffled around. They weren't always placed in the same place. Sometimes it was after verse 33 as shown above and sometimes it was after verse 40. This leads some scholars to feel that they were marginal notes dealing with cultural issues of the day. They weren't Paul's words. Later scribes put them in as part of the letter possibly influenced by 1 Timothy 2 which is not written by Paul.
This type of change happened many times. Marginal notes became part of the text. Not necessarily the intention of the writer(s).
So how much is sanctioned by God?
I think the words including and in between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21 are sanctioned by God.
Though we do not have the autographs of any of these books, I think what we do have is adaquate to convey major themes of God's communication to man.
No we do not have the letter that the Corinthians wrote which Paul was responding to. We can speculate. Just as we can take note of copyists' descrepancies and speculate that a sentence may have been added by a scribe, maybe not a part of Paul's autograph.
That's what you have with this textural examination - speculation like me, like "some scholars" -
" This leads some scholars to feel that they were marginal notes dealing with cultural issues of the day. They weren't Paul's words. Later scribes put them in ...
Fortunately, this matter of 1 cor. 14:36,37 effects no major tenet of the New Testament.
I think God was sovereign over the typos of copyists too. I know some will regard that as not playing fair. But I think God kept watch over these things too.
I think they are more of test to us then a test to His authority. we are experts on missing the point, you know ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 329 of 386 (586333)
10-12-2010 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by jaywill
10-12-2010 2:26 PM


Re: Those who are being saved.
I think the words including and in between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21 are sanctioned by God.
So, do you also believe that you should hold God accountable for things in the Bible which are CLEARLY amoral?
You do realize that the Bible, among other things, calls for the wholesale slaughter of every man, woman, child and farm animal in an entire town if even one person there worships a different religion.
Does that seem morally just to you?
How about slavery? The God of the Bible is clearly a big fan. Morally just?
The problem with claiming that the Bible is sanctioned by God _AND_ claiming that God is all knowing and just is that as time moves forward, the Bible stays the same.
If you HONESTLY believe what you are claiming, can you state for the record that you are in support of bringing back slavery and murdering people who follow different religions?
Or are you saying that God is wrong when he tells you to do these things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by jaywill, posted 10-12-2010 2:26 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by jaywill, posted 10-12-2010 5:52 PM Nuggin has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 330 of 386 (586347)
10-12-2010 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Nuggin
10-12-2010 3:20 PM


Re: Those who are being saved.
So, do you also believe that you should hold God accountable for things in the Bible which are CLEARLY amoral?
It depends on how it is presented. Are you speaking of something the Bible teaches or something the Bible records as having happened ?
Many amoral things are recorded as having occured. This does not mean that they are instructions for the reader's own behavior.
Now, dealing with what is taught (not just recorded), I admit there some problematic teachings, particularly the Old Testament may offend our sensibilities.
These difficult areas, I think, need to be examine case by case.
You do realize that the Bible, among other things, calls for the wholesale slaughter of every man, woman, child and farm animal in an entire town if even one person there worships a different religion.
This is what I realize Nuggin. There are many instances of God's dealing with man. They are of different levels of severity. They could be arranged on a scale of extremely severe to very merciful.
Now on ONE end of the spectrum you have a couple of very severe judgments. God told Josua's army that they were not to pity, but to wipe out everyone. These few instances are really super harsh.
But not all of His judgments came to this extreme. So I began to wonder "Why Lord?"
"Why in THIS instance You were so extreme to tell the executioners that they were not to pity but slay even childen ? If I had been an editor of the Bible, I would have not included that account. "
Yet, the Hebrew kings also had a reputation in Canaan of being merciful. Did you know that ?
"And his servants said to him, Look now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings. we beg you, let us put sackcloth on our loins and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the king of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your life." (1 Kings 20:31)
How could this be ? How could these slaughtering kings of Israel get a reputation for being also merciful?
I began to understand that God does the right thing, at the right time, in the right way. When a devastatingly HARSH judgment was what was needed, God had the Israelite army do that. When a judgment tempered with mercy was necessary, He also had them do that. When no judgment at all was called for, He did that.
Instead of getting irreconcilingly offended by the judgment of some of the Canaanite tribes I became suspicious that God knows JUST what to do in the RIGHT way at the RIGHT time.
This is not an easy stance to take. But I never STOPPED believing in God or loving His word because of these sparse instances of very harsh judgment.
I could say more but that is enough for now, and it may be off topic.
God laid out, faithfully, candedly, and honestly the full scope of His varying levels of severity. From one extreme end of the spectrum to the other the word of God faithfully informs us of the wide scope of possible ways God will act.
No, I did not toss my Bible into the trash when I read about Jericho. I kept reading all the way to the end.
Does that seem morally just to you?
I realize that in Genesis 15 God told Abraham that it would be another 400 years before He would bring the Israelites into Canaan. And this for the following reason - the Canaanites had not yet gotten BAD enough to merit so harsh a judgment.
God told Abraham that to judge them now was pre-mature. God allowed them to SINK to the ROCK BOTTOM of sinfulness. He said He would judge them in another 400 years of thier downward decline.
After that 400 years we see that God gave them an additional 40 years in which to repent. They saw the army of Jehovah wandering in the wilderness for an additional 40 years. Rehab told the spies that the people of Jericho saw what was coming.
This timeline suggests to me that the Righteous God did the RIGHT thing at the RIGHT time in the RIGHT way. And furthermore, it is not surprising that sometimes we would simply not understand God.
ALL of the judgments were not that harsh. And I meditated on why that was so.
As a matter of fact sometimes God used a nation to punish another nation. Then afterwards the nation He used as punishers, He told them that they went TOO FAR in thier mecilessness. And for that reason He would now punish them.
So I continued to read ALL of the Bible and saw a wide spectrum of Divine dealings from this God.
How about slavery? The God of the Bible is clearly a big fan. Morally just?
The problem with claiming that the Bible is sanctioned by God _AND_ claiming that God is all knowing and just is that as time moves forward, the Bible stays the same.
If you HONESTLY believe what you are claiming, can you state for the record that you are in support of bringing back slavery and murdering people who follow different religions?
Or are you saying that God is wrong when he tells you to do these things?
I'll have to comment on this latter. Remind me if I forget.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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