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Author Topic:   Chimpanzee-human genetic gap
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 196 of 244 (282231)
01-28-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 5:56 PM


Re: Another attempt at agreement
And Crashfrog didn't know this ?
no, apparently not. that was i replied, to which he said "interesting, thank you."
This is why I referred to his initial reply as "absurd nonsense"
well, to be honest, hurling more absurd nonsense (and enraged attacks) back at him isn't going to help explain your position, nor is it an "attempt at agreement."

great scott!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 5:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 197 of 244 (282232)
01-28-2006 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by wj
01-28-2006 5:24 PM


Re: Is this a creationist list of kinds?
The list above does raise the question of why reptiles aren't quadrupeds. Do amphibians get a mention? Are kangaroos quadrapeds in this system? Where do snakes fit in?
Macro-kinds:
Mankind
Birds
Quadrupeds
Reptiles (includes snakes)
Fish
source: the Bible.
I am not saying the list is complete. I am saying it is impossible to breach the genetic barrier of each kind and the species properly catalogued under each kind. We have genuine macroevolution (not Darwinian) within each kind. There are also genetic barriers within each kind that cannot be breached.
Evolution; God's Greatest Creation
We are attempting to make sense out of an extremely complex "organicism"/nature, almost irreparably confused by Darwinian style macroevolution caused by the Biblical blinding penalty for denying God Creator status.
We now know complexity is the mark of intelligence and the more complex = more Mind was involved. Nature is extremely complex = why we cannot figure it out = work of a Mind and not a blind process controlled by Darwinian minds behind the curtain.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by wj, posted 01-28-2006 5:24 PM wj has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by arachnophilia, posted 01-28-2006 6:19 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 209 by Coragyps, posted 01-28-2006 8:01 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 198 of 244 (282233)
01-28-2006 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 6:16 PM


Re: Is this a creationist list of kinds?
Macro-kinds:
Mankind
Birds
Quadrupeds
Reptiles (includes snakes)
Fish
source: the Bible.
book, chapter, and verse where these are specifically laid out? (edit: i would also like to remind you that the bible is not considered a valid source for the science fora anymore than dawkins is a valid source in the religious fora)
This message has been edited by hillbilly, 01-28-2006 06:20 PM

great scott!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:16 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:34 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 199 of 244 (282234)
01-28-2006 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by arachnophilia
01-28-2006 6:19 PM


Re: Is this a creationist list of kinds?
book, chapter, and verse where these are specifically laid out?
One such place is Romans 1:23
But I will not talk about it here until my paper is released in March or April.
i would also like to remind you that the bible is not considered a valid source for the science
Predictable Darwinian opinion.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by arachnophilia, posted 01-28-2006 6:19 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by arachnophilia, posted 01-28-2006 6:43 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 203 by jar, posted 01-28-2006 6:49 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 200 of 244 (282235)
01-28-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 6:01 PM


Re: Another attempt at agreement
What you call "large populations" the Bible calls "kinds".
That's simply nonsense, though. If you think that answers my question, try again.
Maybe I need to make it clearer? We're not talking about two different species, here. We're talking about two different groups of the exact same organism.
We only observe hmeostasis in the sufficiently large population. Int he small group, we don't observe it at all.
Why is that? For like the fourth time, can you answer my question or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:01 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:48 PM crashfrog has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 201 of 244 (282239)
01-28-2006 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 6:34 PM


Re: Is this a creationist list of kinds?
One such place is Romans 1:23
quote:
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
paul seems to have forgotten fish. funny though, i would have thought you would have used genesis's list:
  • grass, herb yeilding seed, fruit trees (1.11)
  • sea serpents or "whales," birds (everything that lives in the water or air, 1.21)
  • beasts of the earth, cattle, creeping things (everything that lives on land, 1.25)
  • man (1.27)
but then again, i'm just an enraged darwinist, what do i know about the bible?
But I will not talk about it here until my paper is released in March or April.
uh huh.
Predictable Darwinian opinion.
enraged fundamentalist rant.
This message has been edited by hillbilly, 01-28-2006 06:43 PM

great scott!


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 Message 199 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:34 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 202 of 244 (282241)
01-28-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by crashfrog
01-28-2006 6:38 PM


Re: Another attempt at agreement
Maybe I need to make it clearer? We're not talking about two different species, here. We're talking about two different groups of the exact same organism.
Negative.
I thought we were talking about large populations of related species/kinds.
We only observe homeostasis in the sufficiently large population. In the small group, we don't observe it at all.
Okay, how is the barrier you accept breached, which allowed common ancestry to proceed ?
Do you have evidence for your answer other than assumptions and rhetoric like evolution/NS-did-it ?
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 6:38 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 6:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 203 of 244 (282243)
01-28-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 6:34 PM


Romans 1 refers to kind?
Ray, have you ever read the Bible?
Romans 1 has absolutely nothing to do with kinds and Romans 1:23 specifically is completely unrelated.
But Romans 1 is realatively short, so let's look at the whole chapter instead of trying to cherry pick parts of a sentence.
Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
In fact, Romans 1 is one of the places that Paul speaks out against the willfull ignorance shown by the Biblical Creationists when he says
13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
So at the peril of your immortal soul Ray, put aside your willfull ignorance and embrace the wisdom and wonder of Evolution.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:34 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:59 PM jar has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 204 of 244 (282245)
01-28-2006 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 6:48 PM


Re: Another attempt at agreement
I thought we were talking about large populations of related species/kinds.
We're talking about populations, period. A large population exhibits genetic homeostasis. Kidnap a small subset of those individuals, seperate them from the large population, and homeostasis disappears in those individuals.
Why is that? That's what I'm asking. I know why it happens, according to evolution. It's your explanation that I've been asking for.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 01-28-2006 06:52 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 7:50 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 205 of 244 (282246)
01-28-2006 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by jar
01-28-2006 6:49 PM


Re: Romans 1 refers to kind?
Jar:
I will not comment on Romans 1:17-25.
I am writing a paper about it to be published on a large Creationist website. I do not want to steal my own thunder.
Jar writes:
13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Your point about this verse makes no sense. I think you made a mistake ?
But since you interpret the Bible via Darwinian evolutionary needs anything you say will reflect this subjectivity.
Ray
This message has been edited by Herepton, 01-28-2006 04:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by jar, posted 01-28-2006 6:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 01-28-2006 7:09 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 206 of 244 (282247)
01-28-2006 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 6:59 PM


Re: Romans 1 refers to kind?
Well, publish it when it's ready Ray, and I'll be glad to comment on it, particularly since Romans 1 is one place where Paul clearly tells us we will get to know GOD by studying evolution.
I won't go over the exact evidence, don't want to steal my own thunder.
But since you interpret the Bible via Creationist willfull ignorance anything you say will reflect this subjectivity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 7:46 PM jar has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 207 of 244 (282251)
01-28-2006 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by jar
01-28-2006 7:09 PM


Re: Romans 1 refers to kind?
I won't go over the exact evidence, don't want to steal my own thunder.
But since you interpret the Bible via Creationist willfull ignorance anything you say will reflect this subjectivity.
Imitation is flattery.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by jar, posted 01-28-2006 7:09 PM jar has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 208 of 244 (282252)
01-28-2006 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by crashfrog
01-28-2006 6:51 PM


Re: Another attempt at agreement
We're talking about populations, period. A large population exhibits genetic homeostasis.
Again, what evidence do you have for the breach of the barrier that you accept which sustains the validity of common ancestry ?
I am exasperated - are you happy ?
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 6:51 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 8:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 209 of 244 (282254)
01-28-2006 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 6:16 PM


Re: Is this a creationist list of kinds?
Macro-kinds:
Mankind
Birds
Quadrupeds
Reptiles (includes snakes)
Fish
source: the Bible.
I see! Quadrupeds means those four-footed insects in the Pentateuch!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 6:16 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 210 of 244 (282255)
01-28-2006 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Cold Foreign Object
01-28-2006 7:50 PM


Re: Another attempt at agreement
Again, what evidence do you have for the breach of the barrier that you accept which sustains the validity of common ancestry ?
That genetic homeostasis isn't found in sufficiently small populations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-28-2006 7:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-29-2006 6:15 PM crashfrog has replied

  
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