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Junior Member (Idle past 5862 days) Posts: 12 From: Schererville, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: why is the lack of "fur" positive Progression for humans? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 755 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Remember, the horse may be faster over a shorter distance, but can the horse keep up its pace for longer than a man could? That is the real question. I've read, long, long ago, that humans (myself certainly excluded) can beat a horse in a marathon (26 mile) race.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
This is either another example of neoteny in humans or it is the raison d'etre for neoteny (ie sexual selection for younger appearing females). According to this guy ... Evolution of nakedness in Homo sapiensJournal of Zoology 273 (1), 1-7. ... there are a couple of problems with neoteny.
It has been suggested that humans are a juvenilized form of ape (Gould, 1977). ... If the hairlessness of the foetal ape was being retained into adulthood by a process of neoteny, one would expect the human body to retain this characteristic throughout its whole development from embryo to adult. However, this is not the case. When the human foetus is 6 months old, it becomes completely covered with a coat of fine hair known as lanugo. Normally, this hair is shed long before birth; occasionally, a baby is born still wearing its woolly coat, only to lose it within the first days after birth (Morgan, 1982). Another weakness of the theory is that while some characteristics may be retained as part of a neotenic package, this only applies to characteristics that are either benign or neutral in their effect on fitness to survive. No one claims that all foetal characteristics are retained in a neotenic species. For example, a human foetus and a human baby both have very short bandy legs, but natural selection ensures that this feature is not retained in adult life (Morgan, 1990). Furthermore, the neoteny theory does not tell us anything about the value of nudity as a new character that helped the naked ape to survive better in his hostile environment (Morris, 1967). Ditto for sexual selection.
Furthermore, expensive sexual signal for the purposes of sexual selection are usually seasonal, and generally develop after sexual maturation. Although H. sapiens males are generally considered to prefer less hairy females (Darwin, 1871), and sexual selection may have facilitated the evolution of nakedness (Rantala, 1999; Pagel & Bodmer, 2003), Darwin's hypothesis does not explain what initial selective advantage would have caused males to start to prefer more naked females (see Fisher, 1930; Kokko et al., 2002). Another author points out that it is unusual in sexual selection to have the same trait selected for in both sexes. Evolution Theory and PracticesEviatar Nevo, Solomon Pavlovich Vasser, 2004, p. 334 Although Dawkins seems to think that when one sex evolved "ahead" of the other, the other sex can be "dragged in its wake". The Ancestor's TaleRichard Dawkins, 2004, p. 264
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But we are talking about survival advantage and fur. Remember that evolution does not look for ultimates, but just good enough. While humans may well be able to run down most prey, particularly using teamwork, there is a converse, being able to out run predators.
It might well have been a happy compromise, but other species such as the hunting dogs, coyotes, wolves and such that do have hair also are known for long range hunts. While we will likely never know for sure, I believe that the reality is more likely that humans ended up as they did because that was just good enough. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Of course, horses sweat over their entire bodies. So sweating explains bare appearance in humans how? This concept of hair - sweat is a tie over from the old "savanna" theory of human bipedalism. Now that we know that bipedalism evolved before the savanna ecology this theory has been discredited. Now go back and rethink the bareness issue. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Not faster, but farther. Take for example, the cheetah, which is the fastest land animal. In a 100-yard dash, it would beat us hands ... er ... paws-down. But who would win a 1-mile run? The difference here is the human brain not the fur\bareness. Delayed gratification. The cheetah is the ultimate get-it-now-or-give-up approach, one you will see in many other animals. What makes humans, wolf packs and similar hunting behavior different is backing down from all out running and being able to track the prey. You can walk a deer down.
Remember also that the excess body heat I'm talking about is generated by the act of running. Not just from walking about in the noon-day sun, but from running. Which again points to the women being the runners then. Half the hair of men. The fact that there is sexual dimorphism in human hairiness shows you where it is being selected - in the sex with the more pronounced expression of the trait. Next look at a few porn websites for unnaturally hairy women, naturally hairy women and unnaturally bare women. Look at ads. Look at the ever hair growing market for hair removal products and tell me that there is not ongoing sexual selection for bare appearing women. Why does googling "hairy women" produce websites of naturally hairy women versus ones with unnaturally shaved arms, legs, etc.? And this has nothing to do with why we are bare. What you may be looking at is the fact that the pre-adaptation for bareness while still in the forest-jungle ecology allowed this ability to develop and not the other way around. Running does not explain sexual dimorphism. Sex does. Sex made us human. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Ever see a wolf Pack hunting? Deer running? It's called cursorial hunting:
quote: None of which needed to evolve bareness to hunt in this manner. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
But we are talking about survival advantage and fur. Or the breeding advantage of apparent bareness ... to the point where it threatened survival and clothes had to be invented for it to continue ... Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Another author points out that it is unusual in sexual selection to have the same trait selected for in both sexes. It isn't. It is selected in women, males just inherit it. Look at the variation in males versus women. Women - nearly all similarly bare, a disease with "male pattern hair" is a dreadful thing requiring treatment, just having a "mustache" is undesirable, trait heavily selected. Men - from nearly bare to covered in hair, all having little trouble finding mates, trait not selected at all. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
...to the "Human Origins and Evolution" forum.
Happening in about 10 minutes. Beware of trying to post to a closed topic. Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts. Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073] Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon. There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot. Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source |
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Or the breeding advantage of apparent bareness ... to the point where it threatened survival and clothes had to be invented for it to continue ... Yup, getting a mate is high on the agenda at times. But I still doubt it is going to be one thing. And when it comes to mate selection, customs change. Look at Ruben's paintings. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
Of course, horses sweat over their entire bodies.
So sweating explains bare appearance in humans how?
The context would tell you what he was talking about. He was not talking about humans. He was pointing out a major difference between dogs and horses. You were the one who brought up horses. The point was that, in terms of eliminating excess body heat through the ability to sweat and hence be cooled when that sweat evaporates, dogs are at a distinct disadvantage while horses fare better. And humans happen to fare even better, but what you responded to didn't say anything about humans. The OP asks why lack of fur would be beneficial for humans. The ability to run without overheating is one. The question is not whether that is how or why that trait evolved, but rather why that trait would be advantageous. BTW, note the common error expressed in the thread title. "positive Progression"? Evolution isn't about progress, but rather about adaptation. A further thought about running occurred to me, though it's a bit off-topic. Thermo-regulation is only one factor. We are bipedal and the other animals we've discussed are quadrapedal. It would seem that the act of running would affect a quadraped's rib cage and hence its ability to breathe. It would seem that the stresses on the rib cage could make it harder to keep sucking in air at the rate that the animal's body would require for a long-distance run. As bipeds, we have two legs up (well, two forelimbs up, literally) on them by freeing our own ribcage from the stresses of running on our forelimbs, thus freeing us to suck air in at whatever rate we need. Of course, that would need to be verified by somebody who actually knows something about it.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Biological Evolution forum.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
BTW, note the common error expressed in the thread title. "positive Progression"? Evolution isn't about progress, but rather about adaptation. While "adaption" or "succession" would probably be a better term, "progression" is not really improper. From Progression Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com:
quote: I had an encounter with this concept many years ago, when I (Minnemooseus) referred to evolution as being a progression (or something like that). If anyone wants to discuss this item further, they should find a better place to do it (perhaps the Quick Questions, Short Answers - No Debate topic. It does not belong in this topic. Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts. Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073] Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon. There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot. Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The context would tell you what And what I was pointing out to nator was horses sweat but have not evolved to be bare. Being able to sweat and being "bare" is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, not an explanation. You also have elephants - that are bare but don't sweat, nor are they known for running down prey.
A further thought about running occurred to me, ... by freeing our own ribcage from the stresses of running on our forelimbs, thus freeing us to suck air in at whatever rate we need. ... and if you ask nator about that she will tell you that horses have coordinated their pace so that the act of running pumps oxygen through their lungs without needing regular lung muscles. That's an adaptation for running. Horses have also evolved an extra pump in each foot that pumps blood back up the leg when running. That is an adaptation for running. The "savanna" running theory does not explain why women are less hairy than men, and without being able to explain that strong dimorphism there is a big whopping giant imploding hole in the argument. This is just a hangover of the 'savanna bipedal theory" that is almost completely discredited now because it cannot explain the evolution of bipedalism before the savanna ecology. Nor does it explain the sexual attraction of bare skin. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : the elephant in the room Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2663 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
It isn't. It is selected in women, males just inherit it. Look at the variation in males versus women. That still doesn't address the initial reason for sexual selection. Why allofasudden is nekkid pretty?
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