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Author Topic:   The race issue
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 38 of 134 (492061)
12-27-2008 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by IceNorfulk
02-21-2008 10:58 AM


Icenorfulk writes:
Now this was the world known to the ancient Hebrews. So the Northern Europeans, Southern Africans, Chinese, Amerindians and Australians are unaccounted for.
human migration began long before the ancient hebrews were even a nation. According to the bible, it began when with the Tower of Babel... archeologist unearthed several temple towers at the ancient site of babylon and one inscription read "The building of this temple offended the gods. In a night they threw down what had been built. They scattered them abroad, and made strange their speech. The progress they impeded.” They dated this particular tower at 3,000 BCE.So lets say they are correct, then migration began at this point and they traveled far and wide.
Why would the hebrew writers need to mention where these travellers settled?
IceNorfulk writes:
Take the name for the Mediterranean Sea, for example: hayyam haggadol, meaning "the Great Sea". Surely the creator of this planet would know better than that?
Or the Global Flood. The reason the flood is "global" is that it seemed to engulf the whole known world. It was "worldwide" in the sense of that day, and local according to our knowledge of things.
Or the "two great lights", the Sun and Moon. The creator would know that neither is very great (compared to other stars, which in the Bible end as little pinpricks stuck into the firmament), and only one is a light. Another strike against the divine inspiration of the Bible.
Or the Tower of Babel. A flat-out denial of linguistic evolution.
Examples abound...
The bible writers wrote mostly from their own perspective and they were not writing for the creator's benefit, They wrote for the benefit of the people. They wrote in a way that the people would understand. Its as simple as that.
Ps. The tower of Babel story does not flat out deny linguistic evolution at all. Languages are always evolving, even today we see it.
Edited by Peg, : fixed quote box
Edited by Peg, : removed 50's

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by IceNorfulk, posted 02-21-2008 10:58 AM IceNorfulk has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Granny Magda, posted 12-28-2008 12:01 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 41 of 134 (492066)
12-27-2008 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Buzsaw
12-27-2008 6:50 PM


Re: Intelligent Design Programmer
the babel account has archeological evidence
they unearthed a number of towers in the ancient site of babylon & George Smith, who was a staff member of the British Museum, wrote a book called 'Chaldean Account of Genesis'
sure, they cannot unequivocally say that this was nimrods tower, but the fact remains that people were building these towers and one inscription clearly states that it made the gods angry and the people were forced to scatter

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 Message 39 by Buzsaw, posted 12-27-2008 6:50 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 43 of 134 (492078)
12-28-2008 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Granny Magda
12-28-2008 12:01 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
i do know a bit about the Aboriginal population Magda and if they were really here for 40,000 years or more, what might you expect their population to amount to??? 100,000, 500,000, 1million, maybe more?
what would you conclude if their population amounted to only 300,000?
this was the approximate aboriginal population when captain cook arrived in the 18th century.
And they were Asian migrants, as is agreed my many anthropologists.
the source of the quote i posted comes from the book by George Smith, of the British Museum, in his book "Chaldean Account of Genesis" He had something to do with the excavations that found the many towers in the ancient city of Babylon, some of which they dated to 3,000 bce.
About languages evolving... Yes, they do evolve today and that does not at all diminish the validity of the babel story. Old english has been replaced by modern english for instance...some words are no longer used, some new words have been added. In Asia we see many dialects of the same language.
i dont see a problem with believing in the babel account and believing in the evolution of languages

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Granny Magda, posted 12-28-2008 12:01 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 12-28-2008 4:34 AM Peg has replied
 Message 47 by Granny Magda, posted 12-28-2008 10:29 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 45 of 134 (492088)
12-28-2008 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
12-28-2008 4:34 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
did i say it was discovered in the 50's???
my apologies
they were unearthed much earlier and documented by George Smith who was the same archeologist who first discovered and translated the Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest-known written work of literature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 12-28-2008 4:34 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 12-28-2008 9:07 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 49 of 134 (492180)
12-29-2008 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by PaulK
12-28-2008 9:07 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
perhaps you should visit the British museum some time lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 12-28-2008 9:07 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by cavediver, posted 12-29-2008 5:18 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 55 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2008 6:26 AM Peg has replied
 Message 61 by AdminNosy, posted 12-29-2008 10:15 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 50 of 134 (492182)
12-29-2008 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Granny Magda
12-28-2008 10:29 PM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
Granny Magda writes:
There is no reason for me to expect their population to be at any particular level. You seem to be insisting that all populations should just keep expanding. What possible reason could you have for thinking this?
populations tend to do that... if you have 10 couples, they will likely produce 10 children in a year
if you have 500 couples, they will likely produce 500
it doesnt take much to work out that the longer a population reproduces, the greater the reproduction rate.
in 40,000 years, you'd certainly expect a larger population then 300,000. Besides this, most people recognize that aboriginals came from asia.
My smith quote is right... i've read the book... smith even gave a lecture about his finds in which parliamentarians sat (apparently the first time parliamentaries sat for an archeological lecture) On page 17, as an example, he gives a list of each of his findings, number 10 is the account about the confusion of languages and the scattering of the inhabitants.
magda writes:
If such dramatic changes can take place in so quickly (comparatively speaking), what would have prevented them from evolving in the tens of thousands of years of human history previous to 4000 BCE date for Babel? Please note that this is a science forum; Goddidit is not an acceptable answer.
what are you basing your premis on here?
Edited by Peg, : added question

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Granny Magda, posted 12-28-2008 10:29 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by anglagard, posted 12-29-2008 5:17 AM Peg has replied
 Message 53 by cavediver, posted 12-29-2008 5:26 AM Peg has replied
 Message 58 by Granny Magda, posted 12-29-2008 6:43 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 54 of 134 (492192)
12-29-2008 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by anglagard
12-29-2008 5:17 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
i dont doubt that at all
''
but i do doubt that a '40,000' year old culture could only amount to 300,000 people

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by anglagard, posted 12-29-2008 5:17 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by bluescat48, posted 12-29-2008 3:03 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 56 of 134 (492194)
12-29-2008 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by cavediver
12-29-2008 5:26 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
if the population of Tasmania (Australia's bottom island) is almost 1/2 million in a little over 200years
surely a tribe of people would produce more then 300,000 in 40,000 years
anyone who would think otherwise must have rocks in their head

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by cavediver, posted 12-29-2008 5:26 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by cavediver, posted 12-29-2008 7:04 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 63 by fallacycop, posted 12-29-2008 4:39 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 57 of 134 (492195)
12-29-2008 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by PaulK
12-29-2008 6:26 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
whatever mate
im not trying to get into an argument over this... but i did not misquote smith...page 17 if you missed it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2008 6:26 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2008 7:09 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 64 of 134 (492281)
12-29-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Granny Magda
12-29-2008 6:43 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
granny magada writes:
Mindlessly oversimplified piffle. As anglagard has already pointed out, environmental factors, disease, deaths in childbirth and many other factors limit population growth. Ancient Australia would not have been able to sustain huge populations without agriculture.
what do you class as agriculture? the aboriginals were hunter gatherers...they ate a wide variety of foods and the bush provided more then they needed.
granny magda writes:
Where does that quote come from? Here is the entire text of the tablets. If you really think that the text says what you claim it says, then all it demonstrates is how deeply you are deluding yourself and seeing only what you want to see.
When the assyrian kings library was discovered, they found around 10,000 tablets...they collected up all they could and took them to the british museum. Its from these tablets that we have information about ancient Assyria and its kings and their way of life etc.
the following quote is found on page 48 in smiths book. Smith being one of the interpreters of the tablets.
Chaldean Account of Genesis Page 48 writes:
They say that the first inhabitants of the earth,
glorying in their own strength and size and despising
the gods, undertook to raise a tower whose top should
reach the sky, in the place in which Babylon now
stands; but when it approached the heaven the
winds assisted the gods, and overthrew the work
upon its contrivers, and its ruins are said to be
still at Babylon ; and the gods introduced a diversity
of tongues among men, who till that time had all
spoken the same language ; and a war arose between
Cronos and Titan. The place in which they built
the tower is now called Babylon on account of the
confusion of tongues, for confusion is by the He
brews called Babel. Euseb. Prcep. Evan. lib. ix. ;
Syncel. Chron. xliv. ; Euseb. Chron. xiii.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Granny Magda, posted 12-29-2008 6:43 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2008 9:14 PM Peg has replied
 Message 71 by bluescat48, posted 12-30-2008 12:20 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 75 by fallacycop, posted 12-30-2008 2:22 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2008 3:37 AM Peg has replied
 Message 77 by Granny Magda, posted 12-30-2008 4:56 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 66 of 134 (492297)
12-29-2008 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by DrJones*
12-29-2008 9:14 PM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
they didnt need to practice agriculture because the land produced enough food for them..australia is a huge place
http://pals.dia.wa.gov.au/food.aspx

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2008 9:14 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2008 9:33 PM Peg has replied
 Message 74 by fallacycop, posted 12-30-2008 2:18 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 68 of 134 (492300)
12-29-2008 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by DrJones*
12-29-2008 9:33 PM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
what growth rate has the environment permitted over the past 200 years?
like i said, Tasmania itself has grown to 1/2 million in a little over 200 years

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2008 9:33 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Coyote, posted 12-29-2008 10:23 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 70 by DrJones*, posted 12-29-2008 10:39 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 72 by fallacycop, posted 12-30-2008 2:15 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 78 of 134 (492327)
12-30-2008 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Granny Magda
12-30-2008 4:56 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
i dont come here with the intention of lecturing people magda
granny magda writes:
you're lecturing the wrong person on the subject of foraging vs agriculture. I both grow my own food and forage for wild food. Guess what; foraging is much, much less efficient and I'm doing it in a far more forgiving landscape than ancient Australia. Why do you think the agricultural revolution took place at all if foraging was so effective? Trust me, if you want to put food on the table, agriculture is far more effective.
if what you say is true, then you would think that the aboriginals who live in the remote areas today would have learnt that lesson and implemented agricultural methods
granny magda writes:
You're scepticism about the antiquity of Indigenous Australian culture is simply irrelevant. The archaeological evidence is out there. If you have a problem with, say, the dating methods used to date Mungo Man (just as one example), pull up a thread and we'll have it out. Until then, you're pissing into the wind. Human activity in Australia (and America and many other places) is way older than 5000 years ago. Case closed.
while 40,000 or even 60,000 years might the a view held by many, it is not the view held by all
if they really did come from from south east asia, then that puts their migration at 2,000 BCE because this is the time that Asians from china began their southward migration, settling in taiwan then further to the pacific islands around 1500 BCE...then Papua New Guinea in 1300 BCE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Granny Magda, posted 12-30-2008 4:56 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Granny Magda, posted 12-30-2008 8:30 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 79 of 134 (492328)
12-30-2008 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by PaulK
12-30-2008 3:37 AM


Re: Complex Issues Don't Need Simplistic Answers
i have no need to misrepresent anyone

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2008 3:37 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2008 10:25 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 91 by cavediver, posted 01-01-2009 7:31 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 80 of 134 (492329)
12-30-2008 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by AdminNosy
12-29-2008 10:15 AM


Re: honest debate is required
i must say that there is a lot of arrogance and insult hurling that goes on in these debates
it would be nice if people could remain civil but it seems they can't and when that happens i feel the debate gets spoiled and i tend not to take some of those comments seriously
hence why my level of interaction wanes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by AdminNosy, posted 12-29-2008 10:15 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
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