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Author Topic:   Is evolution going backwards?
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 84 (187443)
02-22-2005 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
02-21-2005 12:17 PM


quote:
I think that's a reasonable point. But I disagree with your second premise; it seems to me that war increases diversity via sexual recombination of individuals who otherwise might not have mated. Armies rape; that's gene flow between otherwise separate populations
A fair point. As a counterpoint I would mention that I am not convinced that more people die in wars between nations/kingdoms/tribes than die through the self-policing of nations/kingdoms/tribes. Rape and similar acts under these circumstances would not increase variation, but your point is well made considering the migratory groups.
quote:
Of course, the majority of deaths in warfare have been from disease.
Agreed but: an army is necessarily an unusually dense concentration of people. Its precisely for this reason that Sun Tzu advises against keeping armies in being for long periods. Disease deaths that necessarily arise from the praxis of war-fighting, as they do, were implicitly part of the military death toll I was trying to discuss. That is, without the social phenomenon of warfare, those deaths would not have occurred, whether by disease or violence.

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Arkansas Banana Boy
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 84 (187674)
02-23-2005 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
02-21-2005 12:17 PM


Good points Crash.
While I reflexively disagree with any purported directionality to physical evolution, I may alter my view here. It seems to me that our cultural evolution(social structure leading to warfare in these examples) have led to the strengthing of some groups over others, both culturally and physically through gene transfer and selection by physical stress and disease resistence.
Now I am not a eugenesist nor am I claiming this to be a good thing morally; it just is the way things happened.
I am thinking specifically about the book 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' by Jared Diamond. For those who haven't read it, it seeks to explain why some groups took over others due to the groups of plants and animals that they domesticated rather than any intrinsic superiority of the group. It is kind of a 'right place, right time' hypothesis of historical development.
But as Crash says, it's a lot to tease out from the multiple threads of history.
ABB

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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 84 (187701)
02-23-2005 6:58 AM


Take that a step further and you can argue that civilisation is the purposeful domestication of human beings, with all that implies.

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 84 (187839)
02-23-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by sfs
02-04-2005 1:59 PM


two points
This is an interesting thread. Two quick points I noticed that keep getting glossed over:
One:
quote:
2) Humans in economically developed countries are less likely to pass on their genes than those in poorer countries. This is just a fact.
  —sfs
Except Mormons. Seriously, don't forget that even economically developed countries with low or negative growth rates have population sub-sets (religious, ethnic) with very high growth rates. In cases like N. Ireland and Kossovo the 'wealth= more fit" argument hardly worked as these (typically) poorer population subsets (Catholics, Albanians) eventually overwhelmed the wealthier ones.
Two: Humans DO compete with other organisms for food and resources. Since the dawn of time we have struggled to prevent insects, rodents, bacteria, predators (etc) from consuming resources - crops & livestock - that we want for ourselves.
This message has been edited by custard, 02-23-2005 15:59 AM

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Replies to this message:
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custard
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 84 (187845)
02-23-2005 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Arkansas Banana Boy
02-08-2005 5:40 PM


Re: Wow
This is for Queztal and Banana Boy:
kuro5hin.org
I read this article (a similar one) a while back about how prolific Ghengis Khan was "Genghis Khan's direct patrilineal descendants today constitute ~8% of men in a large area of Asia (~0.5% of the world population). "
That would be an argument for contracycle, I suppose, to show the impact war can have on the gene pool: specifically, successful conquerers' influence on the gene pool.
But I agree with both Q and ABB that disease has had a much greater impact on the human gene pool than war/conflict - except the Great Flood of course.

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 81 of 84 (187913)
02-23-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by custard
02-23-2005 3:48 PM


Re: two points
In cases like N. Ireland and Kossovo the 'wealth= more fit" argument hardly worked as these (typically) poorer population subsets (Catholics, Albanians) eventually overwhelmed the wealthier ones.
Unless you've just stepped out of your time machine and have access to information the rest of us don't I think it is more than a little premature to claim that the Catholics in Northern Ireland have "overwhelmed" the Protestants. The Protestants are still in the majority (and are likely to be for some time) - this is why when there was a devolved assembly the First Minister was a Protestant. If it is ever restarted it will still be a Protestant, unfortunately this time it will be the monstrous Ian Paisley.
Or maybe you've just been watching ST:TNG

Confused ? You will be...

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Replies to this message:
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custard
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 84 (187918)
02-23-2005 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by MangyTiger
02-23-2005 8:04 PM


busted
quote:
Unless you've just stepped out of your time machine and have access to information the rest of us don't I think it is more than a little premature to claim that the Catholics in Northern Ireland have "overwhelmed" the Protestants.
  —mangytiger
I, uh, used a computer projection.. that's it!
I stand by my Kossovo example though.
(Darn Limeys!)

This message is a reply to:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6354 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 83 of 84 (187926)
02-23-2005 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by custard
02-23-2005 8:14 PM


Re: busted
I stand by my Kossovo example though.
(Darn Limeys!)
Well being a Darn Limey I just can't resist pointing out that it was really US air power that overwhelmed Serbia in Kosovo, not the Kosovo Albanians

Confused ? You will be...

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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 84 (190001)
03-04-2005 8:51 AM


It also supports the view that large families arte a strategy deployed in extremis. Its a strategy that works, sure, so we see it cropping up again and again. But it remains somewhat silly in my eyes to say that people resorting to this measure are more succesful - they are not, that is why this strategy is a good one for them.

  
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