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Author Topic:   All in the Family - Guest star: Neanderthal
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 31 of 96 (277283)
01-08-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by randman
01-08-2006 5:37 PM


Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
Not solely. In fact, one of the common creationist complaints since the 50s is that evos misrepresent Neanderthals.
The idea that the neanderthal might be very similar looking to homo sapien sapiens was put forward by Carleton Coon (an old school Darwinian (as opposed to the new synthesis)) in his 1939 depiction.
In 1955 Camille Arambourg analysed Boule's Neanderthal and came to a conclusion quite different from the slouching sub-human. This was elaborated on in 1957, when W.L. Straus and A.J.E. Cave discovered signs of arthiritis in the La Chapelle skeleton but agreed that it would have walked upright and would have been little different from Modern Man.
edit: Source
This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 09-January-2006 12:15 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by randman, posted 01-08-2006 5:37 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by randman, posted 01-09-2006 2:42 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 46 by randman, posted 01-11-2006 2:23 AM Modulous has not replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 35 of 96 (277473)
01-09-2006 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
01-09-2006 2:42 AM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
Which is why there is no excuse for evos continually depicting Neanderthals in the ape to human transition so famous in textbooks and excessively ape-like.
Let me rephrase that in a more accurate manner for you
quote:
Which is why there is no excuse for people continually depicting Neanderthals in the ape to human transition so famous in textbooks and excessively ape-like.
And you're right, there is no excuse. People that depict Neanderthals in this manner are sloppy reserachers, who allow themselves to be influenced by pop culture images rather than primary research.
Once again, we see scientists showing that what is being taught is wrong, but it taking decades for those errors to leave college courses and textbooks.
Indeed, I turn once again to one of the most prominent evos for a quote here, Gould:
quote:
...mindless recycling that has led to the persistence of these drawings in a large number, if not a majority, of modern textbooks...
He was referring to Herr Haeckel, but the same principle applies.
No 'evo' conspiracy, just the usual sloppy standards in education texts I'm afraid. Personally, I wish it were an evo conspiracy, it would probably be easier to solve.

I take it that you concede that evolutionists have also been trying to set the record straight on Boule's nonsense entering pop culture, and that the evo trend for this started in the 30s and gained serious weight in the 50s?
This message has been edited by Modulous, Mon, 09-January-2006 01:01 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by randman, posted 01-09-2006 2:42 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by randman, posted 01-11-2006 2:25 AM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 44 of 96 (277939)
01-10-2006 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object
01-10-2006 10:25 PM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
Good point.
Why do evos do this ?
At the turn of the 20th Century a man named Boule depicted Neanderthal as being brutish. As I mentioned in Message 31, this is an error that has been corrected by evos since the late 30s, and in earnest since the 50s. Pop cultural images are a difficult beast to kill.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-10-2006 10:25 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1536 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 54 of 96 (277978)
01-11-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by randman
01-11-2006 2:25 AM


Re: Evolutionists have been trying to set the record straight since the 50s
Sloppiness and incompetence works just as good as deliberate conspiracy which I did not maintain, even though it benefitted evos to inadvertently or otherwise fool the public about the data.
Indeed, as I said:
quote:
And you're right, there is no excuse.
Sloppiness in textbooks is something we consistently agree is a bad thingTM, however, misrepresenting the hard work of evolutionary biologists and anthropologists does not benefit them.


Late Edit to clarify for the readers:
Message 27 Belfry says that evos were responsible for the change in Neanderthal depiction.
Message 29 Randman: Not soley, creationists have been complaining about the depiction since the 50s
Message 31 Mod: Evos have been trying to correct this depiction since the 30s, and in earnest since the 50s (sources cited).
Message 34 Randman: So evos depicting them wrong is inexcusable
Message 35 Mod: ANYBODY, evolutionary biologist or otherwise, that depicts them contrary to the primary literature composed by the field-relevant evolutionary biologists is guilty of sloppy research.
This message has been edited by Modulous, Fri, 13-January-2006 08:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by randman, posted 01-11-2006 2:25 AM randman has not replied

  
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