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Author Topic:   Aquatic Ape theory?
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 79 of 138 (529318)
10-08-2009 8:53 PM


the sloth is vegetarian. It swims in a swampy area to reach another yummy tree. We are omnivores. We are apes and have wonderfully extendable arms great for grasping clams and crabs.
The savannah theory is no longer held viable by many physical anthropologists because of the flora that was present at the beginning of our line. It was a wet forest.
H floresiensis has been found thousands of miles from Africa. This creature had long wide flat feet. It couldn't walk or run well, but could most likely swim like a champ. Homo habilis is it's closest relative. It lived in wet environments, and was a tool maker. Handy Man is it;s familiar name.
We are omnivores. H floresiensis's trash showed a varied diet including water born food.
Walking around with our arms free is an advantage. Swimming supine we can dive and glide opening food sources hidden from other animals. H habilis could crack a clam. His huge cousin, Boisei, could crack skulls. it lived in the savannah.
Along with our smooth and fine haired bodies, our kicking feet, we are natural swimmers.That is where I put my money. We got a brain boost through a steady rich diet. Chimps went for the forest, while we struck for the wetlands.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 80 of 138 (532842)
10-26-2009 9:17 PM


The new Scientific American issue has a story of h Floresiensis. The idea it is closely related to Homo Habilis has taken root. The similarities are significant, including the making of sophisticated tools.
It seems non plausible to me that scientists staring at the Hobbit's feet don't entertain at least a fleeting thought the feet are great for water propulsion. Michael phelps had large feet, short legs, and a long powerful torso. The Hobbit is built the same, but with a downward curve of the clavicle, giving the hobbit a streamlined neck to shoulder shape.
Interestingly, the artist who created the model for the Hobbit pictured in Scientific American made her buck naked.
There needs to be an intensive search of shoreline caves in Africa, the middle east, all the way to Indonesia.

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


(1)
Message 81 of 138 (553555)
04-03-2010 9:58 PM


aquatic beginnings gaining in acceptance
Just yesterday National Geographic Presents featured the latest findings on our chimpanzee brethren. There was some cool tool using footage, but I will cut to the chase.
It became rather obvious the only thing that differentiated between us and the ape line is our upright stance. After raising the various weak theories why we learned to walk on two legs, they settled on an aquatic adaptation as the most likely occurrence.
When this subject started here, there were only a couple sites dedicated to an aquatic ape. Now, there are scads of sites, some extremely learned.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 83 of 138 (553750)
04-04-2010 10:42 PM


I never said the NG film was a scientific production. The fact they spent time and money on a video segment of an early hominid scooping up what looks like a bivalve, proves there is a growing interest in this most convincing impetus for early upright walking, swimming naked adaptations.
Ardi had only a very short time in which to have had evolved into an upright stance. That is no problem, as punctuated evolution theory is built around short evolutionary incidents caused by locally strong environmental pressures.
The Chimp and the Gorilla have proven to be quite successful genotypes at home in a drier forested environment. How do you think we, just a few percentages of genotype away from being a chimp, evolved so radically different? Except for size, the gorilla and chimp look quite alike. Why would evolve an upright stance useless in the forest? Try to race a chimp up a tree.
Remember, you can't use the brave hunter venturing into the savannah model. Upright Ardi was found to be living in a watery forest.
Our obvious water friendly adaptions presently allow us to harvest meals from the water. That should give us a clue. Our sweat not only cools us, it exudes salt. In a salty, sunny environment that is a plus for both categories. Water suspends our weight, allowing skeletal adaptations time to develop in relative safety. Those that were quicker swimmers could support more progeny. There is that reward niche punctuated evolution describes.
I would think the Flores, "Hobbit," would give the anti-aquatic folks pause. Here was a recent hominid who looks very much like homo Habilis with abnormally big feet living thousands of miles from Africa. The feet were not only long and wide, they were without an arch. What would make wonderful diving fins, make also poor feet for walking or running.
I doubt we are going to find a definitive african fossil that proves one way or the other, except one. That is why the fossils from Flores is really important. The food leftovers not only consisted of baby miniature elephants, there were fish and shellfish shells and bones present. Flores had no large carnivore. That is why we have these fossils high above the water. We may have perhaps the only early hominid home site in existence. Water foragers hugged the shores, away from marauding predators. Shoreline sites are quickly lost to the elements.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 85 of 138 (553783)
04-05-2010 2:05 AM


Hi Bluejay,
I really like your open minded approach. As a good nature aside, I wouldn't have any luck out racing a deer through the brush anymore than I could out climb a chimp.
We are a slow generalist. We can do a little of everything. Our brains allow us to accomplish a lot. We are also responsible for the latest species epochal die off. That's for another topic.
If you ask me, Floresiensis is the smoking gun for how we evolved. She was small in stature, and rather obviously specialized for swimming fast. No other hominid camp has been found. on any shore leading to Flores. That is because they worked the shores, the ever changing shores, where no evidence is left behind. We have a golden trove at the caves of Flores.
I will never believe a bare bod could be gene pooled without some other impetus other than through sexual preference. Chimps and Gorillas, and all the monkeys have never found nudity becoming at all. The whale and porpoise had terrestrial beginnings. Their nudity was arrived through pressures of the environment. Sexual preference may have had a hand.
Fast swimmers, on the other hand, would be attractive traits. Did you know that Manatees have breasts, and they suckle there babes in an upright position? There is a tiny monkey who lives in the Congo. It keeps to the trees near water. They use jumping in the water as an escape route. This monkey also has a specially large brain. They feed on mollusks, crabs, bird eggs, and insects. They have a ready supply of plenty of protein. The Proboscis monkey wades in the water upright. Their legs are long in proportion. Both of these monkeys have a pronounced nose. This all sounds familiar to me.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 88 of 138 (553925)
04-05-2010 7:31 PM


I have not visited the AAH site. Prompted by above, I did just go to a site serving to debunk the AAH. Funny thing, I found the writer to be laughable at times. For instance, he stated, "If our ancestors learned to swim so well, why do so many of us modern humans drown each year?" That statement, ridiculous as it is, strikes me to be the equivalent of bible thumper's often repeated declaration, "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys alive today?"
I cannot see why people find it so hard to consider the theory of swimming hominids when other primates are doing the same. Below there is a short description of three monkeys using water to their advantage.
The Allen's Swamp monkey inhabits swampy, water-rich areas. They are very good swimmers and can dive well. When threatened, they can quickly dive into the waters to AVOID DANGER. The slight webbing of the fingers and toes point to its partially aquatic way of life.
Talapoin Monkeys are good swimmers and commonly sleep on branches overhanging rivers so that they can dive to ESCAPE FROM PREDATORS. Talapoin Monkeys are omnivores, their diet consisting mainly of fruits, seeds, aquatic plants, insects, shellfish, bird eggs and small vertebrates.
The Proboscis Monkey can most often be found in Borneo’s mangrove forests, swamps, and even the lowland riparian forests. The primates are known to move easily between dry land and shallow water and they even swim in deep water. What makes these primates unusual is that they move about from island to island, and in doing so they are often seen WALKING UPRIGHT in a single file.
There we have two examples of my premise we may have well learned to walk upright in the relative safety of the water. As at least two of the above monkeys do find food in the water, we could have learned to glean food from the water, bolstering our protein supplies enabling brain expansion. As an ape, the hominid had some advantage over the monkeys. They were taller, and their free swinging arms lent them an advantage.
The Talapoin is a peculiar monkey. They eat a good deal more protein than other monkeys, and have a much easier finding protein rich foods than do land monkeys. The Talapoin has a big brain, but why? A land monkey has to think about it's place in society, where to get the food, how to get there, and what to do with the food when they find it. The Talapoin has to do all that plus know how to handle river currents and tides, find and know the edibles in the water, learn about new predators and plenty more. They needed a bigger brain than land based monkeys. They do.
Even more striking is how the Proboscis Monkey walks on their hind legs to get from island to island. The females cradle their young on those walks just like a modern woman would do today.
This from another site:
"Proboscis Monkeys are semi-aquatic. They are equally at home wading through the swamps or climbing in the trees. They swim well, and when they leave the water they often walk off through the forest in single file, with the mothers carrying infants in their arms. (It has been suggested that humans might also have once had similar habits.)"
Edited by arrogantape, : No reason given.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 89 of 138 (553927)
04-05-2010 7:44 PM


Blue Jay,
The Mandrill is a marvelously appointed primate. I love him. Our butts grew out of the enlargement of our gluteus medius and maximus muscles used in running and walking........ And, less we forget, swimming.
I don't doubt with the advent of the enlarged muscles hominids learned to value the new rear end, breeding for it.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 91 of 138 (553975)
04-05-2010 9:23 PM


Hey Raz,
So, what are you saying, Homo floresiensis is a shrunken Homo sapiens? Cladistic analysis puts flo after H habilis. There just are too many ape like features to link it to H erectus, let alone H sapiens.
As far as I know this is the latest word on the environment Ardi was found: "According to Scott Simpson, the Gona Project's physical anthropologist, the fossil evidence from the Middle Awash indicates that both A. kadabba and A. ramidus lived in "'a mosaic of woodland and grasslands with lakes, swamps and springs nearby,'" but further research is needed to determine which habitat Ardipithecus at Gona preferred."
Edited by arrogantape, : Ardi lived in in a watery wooded landscape. I checked it out, and I am right.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 94 of 138 (554172)
04-06-2010 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Blue Jay
04-06-2010 4:31 PM


Hi Blue,
Confirmation bias? The reason I don't believe in the brave hunter model is because the few holdouts on the, "Peeking over the grass," impetus for uprightness don't really look at the difficulties presented by this model. The earliest upright walkers had no specialized tools. A pride of lions would make a quick meal of them caught out in the open.
Remember, it's the transitional uprightness that would lead to a quick end, if there is no easy escape. That is why doing the obvious, sticking to a quick getaway in the water sounds so plausible.
I gave you three good examples of primates doing just that.
So, what did you think of the three monkeys I portrayed?

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 Message 100 by Blue Jay, posted 04-07-2010 1:04 AM arrogantape has replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 97 of 138 (554225)
04-06-2010 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Coyote
04-06-2010 10:39 PM


Re: Aquatic monkeys?
Coyote,
I am not just making things up. I will be more careful in the future to post sites where one can see for themselves primates using the water as an escape, and one, the Talapoin using the water for food supply.
Here they are. The Allen Swamp Monkey, and the Talapoin
Allen's Swamp Monkeys - Facts, Information & Habitat
The Proboscis Monkey is a well know monkey the adult mails having a pendulous nose. Their upright wading in the water is well documented.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 98 of 138 (554226)
04-07-2010 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by RAZD
04-06-2010 11:18 PM


First of all, I do not believe any hominid was aquatic. We are not born of mermaids. All I am saying is I believe the upright stance, and a push to nudity, was accomplished quickly by a move to tidal flats, streams, and lake edges. I believe they moved there for relative safety, and for a largely untapped rich food source.
Lucy could climb trees. My son climbs trees. The chimp is still the champ. The chimp can run really fast too. The question remains what pushed an ape to walk on two legs? The chimp rules the woods with it's speed, power, and aggression. Ardi was there. What was it's advantage over the chimp?
Find a video of the Proboscis Monkey wading in tidal flats. See how easily it glides through the water on an incomplete pelvic/leg adaptation. Yes, the Proboscis is a monkey, it is not an equivalent. We are apes. I am just using this monkey as an example how a primate does adapt to two legged walking through wading in the water.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 101 of 138 (554241)
04-07-2010 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Blue Jay
04-07-2010 1:04 AM


Hi Blue,
And you still have not given me any alternative to my belief that would explain what pushed our former ape ancestor into an upright stance.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 105 of 138 (554362)
04-07-2010 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Blue Jay
04-07-2010 9:33 AM


My mind just can't wrap around the notion some ape (The Chimps and Gorillas split at 7 mil) female let the male know she is forsooth a housewife. To carry on the premise, the knuckle walker male set out on a perilous journey to find scarce food. There were predators, and territorial apes to avoid. Finally, after some harrowing near misses, he found some decent chewables, he gathered a bunch under his arm and carefully knuckled to home base. So here is the evolutionary impetus. There is an ever demanding bitch yelling at the male to get more!!!
Somehow, I don't think so.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 108 of 138 (554380)
04-07-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by anglagard
04-07-2010 8:13 PM


Re: Please Address the Primary Objections
(Preface)
Sorry anglard (Love the painting) I did not see your suggestion we take a couple at a time. I am very pleased to meet someone willing to talk points.
I will not defend the AAH. I have no interest in them. From their site aggressors, I sense the group tries too hard. They are amateurs, and fall to their own exuberance.
1.) Specialized skin - There are several types of skin and hair solutions to an aquatic lifestyle. There is no set rule. My model is a primate who is a casual visitor to water use. I do not agree to a aquatic specialist.
2) hair patterns - Not my argument
3) ? I do not know what the point is here. I do know that what may be difficult to impossible on land can be accomplished with the body submerged.
4) Salty tears - Haven't looked into this, and is of little interest to me. I am not a member of AAH.
5) Who cries? - Not of interest, sorry.
6) salt glands - I do have to wonder, when many animals seek out salt rich minerals, including the Gorilla, how the copious salt loss we go though when sweating is replaced? Animals that don't sweat go out of their way for salt replenishment. We sweat it away.
7) Salt again - we like salt this time. I answered that above. We need more salt than a Gorilla.
8) Human babies swim - Nice try by the AAH- but I know other species do too.
9) diving - all animals exhibit diving reflex - yes, but few mammals will dive, and fewer still will go for crabs, bivalves, water weeds, crayfish, etc...... There are folks who dive for such food these days.
10) Holding breath - no argument here.
11) Dropping larynx - Interesting, but not necessary.
13) Downward facing nostrils - All I know is diving is a lot more comfortable than jumping from high into water. Water rushing into the sinuses is not a pleasant feeling.
14) bipedalism less efficient - the author was writing in the past. Ardi was no brachiator. In fact the literature says she was a slow deliberate climber, and a slow bipedal on the ground. This slight awkwardness would put Ardi in a difficult spot. --- unless --- she was a diver and swimmer.
15) Proboscis Monkeys bipedalism - Scenes where the proboscis monkey is wading is quite convincing they are very good at walking while wading. Contrary to what the writer says, there are few monkeys that use this type of walking at length. If anyone knows of a skeletal study of the Proboscis I would like to look it up. Don't you want to know if there are any modifications in the pelvis?
16) Safety of the water - Contrary to the author's statement, there are three primates I know of that sleep in trees over the water. Snakes, leopards, chimps are but a few tree climbing enemies. Sure there are crocs, and water snakes. Living off the water is not a free lunch. Obviously the tradeoff between escaping to the water or not is a successful gamble.
17) Safety in the Savannah - obviously the author wasn't aware the Savannah model has been tossed due to ardi being in a forested wetland.
18) Body temperature - An AHA point. I am not defending AHA.
19) Hymens - whatever
20) sensory whiskers - We do know that we can hear through our jaw. My hearing was tested far above normal. I could feel the faintest sounds, rather than hear it. Men grow beards. I wonder how far that trait goes back. Perhaps it is an outgrowth to sensory whiskers.
21) fat deposition - Just place a woman next to any primate you wish to use, and see who has the smooth curves from shoulder to feet. The subcutaneous fat is far more obvious. They bare no resemblance to any ape.
22) sweat glands - I didn't know seals sweat. Makes sense to me. Any animal that ingests too much salt needs to have a means to vacate the salt.
23) Waterproofing - I have to wash daily, the oil glands are so productive. We may have lost some of this use, since we have been running around the inlands.
24) Sex positions - The author shied away from this one. The face to face copulating we do is rather unusual. I am not embarrassed (don't you just love that word) to say I have made sex in the water. Face to face is the way to go.
25) Brain food - AAH are arguably correct here. There is a tiny old world monkey, the Talapoin, that dives for food. It has a very impressive brain case. While other monkeys are lucky to find a beetle or spider now and then, the little Talapoin picks up plentiful juicy denizens of the water world. This tiny monkey is my hero.
26) Darn! is that all?

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 109 of 138 (554383)
04-07-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by RAZD
04-07-2010 10:17 PM


Re: Please Address these Additional Objections
You know Raz, the Bonobo is your best argument. I love the Bonobo. I would love to know them as my ancestor.
How do I upload a picture?

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