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Author Topic:   Simultaneous appearance of written language and common man
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 46 of 86 (492742)
01-02-2009 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by lyx2no
01-01-2009 9:37 AM


I don't mean to be ghoulish, but . . .
this is from the same account that posted this:
Obit
Which stated that you had died.
So, the options are:
  • you are Mark Twain
  • the executor of the estate is posting in your name
  • a hacker or some other person is using the account
What gives?
Oh, and I'll copy this post to the Obit thread as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by lyx2no, posted 01-01-2009 9:37 AM lyx2no has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 86 (492755)
01-02-2009 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Peg
01-02-2009 5:25 AM


it is all but universally accepted among scholars that the Sumerian cuneiform script of c. 3000 BC is the earliest form of writing.
From exactly where did you get this? This line of text does not appear in ANY of the pages to which I linked. Now, I am going to read the source you got this from, but you will still need to provide a link to it for everyone else. And SHAME on you for plagiarizing!

the last 6,000 years is nothing more then the blink of an eye, yet it seems this is where our 'humanity' began
I thought you were of the opinion that humanity begins with writing.
Yet, if I am understanding you right. We have a modern date of about 2000 A.D., humanity began 6000 years ago, and the earliest writing appeared in 3000 B.C. The math looks like this then:
2000 A.D. -6000 yrs = ~4000 B.C. for appearance of 'humanity'
3000 B.C. for appearance of writing.
For a difference of: 1000 years!
So, considering their dissimilar date of appearance”basing this on your dates”, what is it that writing has to do with the quality of being human? And what of societies that to this day have no writing system?
the history of human writing is very new, especially if you take prehistory into consideration or believe that humans have been evolving fom millions of years on this planet
You need to stop confusing new/old with sudden/gradual. Furthermore, if your premise for support of Creationism (the history of human writing is very new) requires that we look at it from a perspective completely opposed to Creationism (humans have been evolving fom millions of years on this planet), I can hardly see how it helps your ends meet.

You've been Gremled!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Peg, posted 01-02-2009 5:25 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 48 of 86 (492764)
01-02-2009 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Peg
01-01-2009 11:54 PM


Gday,
Peg writes:
so meticulously in fact that we know the exact year of the flood, of Adams creation, of the exodus from egypt ect
Really?
Please tell us the exact years of :
* the flood
* Adam's creation
* the exodus
Do all believers agree with your exact dates ?
K.
(D'oh, I should've read the whole thread first, sorry Huntard.)
Edited by Kapyong, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 49 of 86 (492767)
01-02-2009 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Peg
01-02-2009 5:10 AM


Re: Exact Year
Peg writes:
i dont need to bob and weave..im more then happy to address this
chronology is worked out by counting the time between major events... im giving only the 3 you've asked for here...there are other events that also add to biblical chronology.
Exodus from Egypt - 1513 BCE
Two chronological statements harmonize to produce this date. Solomon began the building of the temple in his fourth year of kingship (1034 B.C.E.), and this is stated at 1 Kings 6:1 to be “the four hundred and eightieth year” from the time of the Exodus (1513 B.C.E.).
the flood - 2370 B.C.E
Many years were spent building the ark, and they went into it “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month (Oct-NOv), on the seventeenth day of the month.” Ge 7:11
Adams creation - 4026 B.C.E
Adam lived 930 years, Ge 5:3-32 gives a line of decent from Adam, to the start of the flood (when noah was 600yrs old) there were a total of 1,656 years.
im happy to clarify anything here with more detailed information.
Thanks. I don't mean to be rude but you would not believe how difficult it is to get a Biblical literalist to provide exact dates even when they claim to know what they are.
Your courage in this matter is noted.
Now you do realize that these dates conflict with a lot of evidence from several fields so be prepared for some serious objections from many professionals, myself included if I feel anything is overlooked.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 01-02-2009 5:10 AM Peg has replied

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 50 of 86 (492772)
01-02-2009 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Kapyong
01-02-2009 5:04 PM


Please tell us the exact years of :
* the flood
* Adam's creation
* the exodus
He did this in Message 33.
Peg writes:
Exodus from Egypt - 1513 BCE
Two chronological statements harmonize to produce this date. Solomon began the building of the temple in his fourth year of kingship (1034 B.C.E.), and this is stated at 1 Kings 6:1 to be “the four hundred and eightieth year” from the time of the Exodus (1513 B.C.E.).
the flood - 2370 B.C.E
Many years were spent building the ark, and they went into it “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month (Oct-NOv), on the seventeenth day of the month.” Ge 7:11
Adams creation - 4026 B.C.E
Adam lived 930 years, Ge 5:3-32 gives a line of decent from Adam, to the start of the flood (when noah was 600yrs old) there were a total of 1,656 years.
Hope that helped.

I hunt for the truth

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Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 5182 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 51 of 86 (492775)
01-02-2009 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Peg
01-01-2009 11:59 PM


Re: Hard archeological evidence
Tanndarr writes:
We see several writing methods evolve simultaneously at different times in different places from their local proto-writing methods. We do not see their proto-writing stopped to be replaced by a new God given writing system; nor do we see all systems developing from a single master system distributed by the wandering nations after Babel
yes thats right
we do see that because when the languages became confused, each group went off in their own direction and formulated their own writing systems
hence why the sudden appearance of various types and styles of writting.
Everyone else does a great job of ripping you apart before I got home from work to see this. I'm not going to address your non-answer in any way other than to say: Great job of failing Peg. You've failed to support your assertion that modern humans arose at the same time as written language when repeatedly asked to do so. I wasn't asking for bible stories and quotes, I was asking you to point to evidence that supported your position.
You fail. You lose. Your position is false. You are telling stories that ignore the plain evidence in front of your face. Can I make it any more clear to you? If you look simply at your own assertions you can see the contradictions in them which no amount of hand-waving at outside evidence will ever fix. Your own arguments are poorly formed and inconsistent, until you fix those you shouldn't try to argue it with others.
For everyone else: thank you for all the other excellent posts. I'm really an amateur at this stuff. I've lurked at EvC for a long time and have learned a lot from all of you. If it's possible I'd still like to focus this topic on the correlation (or lack thereof) between the appearance of modern man and writing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 11:59 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 86 (492809)
01-03-2009 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tanndarr
01-02-2009 5:52 PM


The Real Question
Now now, there is no need to be so harsh. We are all here for to understand one another, and I think that such ends are met better when we do not put one another down no matter how ridiculous are their opinions. Sometimes we can get so in our ways that we do not see where we've erred until someone pushes our nose in it. So, instead of simply telling poor Peg that she has failed, perhaps you could tell her how/where. That is, you would be better to find the source of the miscommunication rather than to jump to playing the blame game.
To start, you state:
You've failed to support your assertion that modern humans arose at the same time as written language when repeatedly asked to do so. I wasn't asking for bible stories and quotes, I was asking you to point to evidence that supported your position.
The miscommunication here is that Peg's very definition of 'modern humans' is, as Rahvin pointed out (Message 4): "those organisms which are biologically identical to currently living humans and possess written language."
You ask Peg to prove that two separate items - modern humans & writing - arose at the same time. Peg finds this impossible, since her definitions/understandings do not have these items as separate. She does not state their co-arrival on Earth as an assertion to be backed, but as a simple definition in which, as in all definitions, each and every part is necessary for a complete definition. Accepting her definition, she cannot see how there is anything to prove. You should be trying to show how her definition is not acceptable, not how her timetables are wrong.
So, let's start off anew on a different foot. We will ask Peg to show why writing is a necessary piece of the definition of "humanness". We will point to the fact that humans exist the world over who only speak languages with no written forms. We will show how ancient cultures, such as the Inca, were very functional and operable human societies sans writing. Once these steps have been walked through, we can move to the timetables.
Sound like a plan to you? It does to me.
Jon

You've been Gremled!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tanndarr, posted 01-02-2009 5:52 PM Tanndarr has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 53 of 86 (492813)
01-03-2009 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jon
01-03-2009 2:25 AM


Re: The Real Question
So, let's start off anew on a different foot. We will ask Peg to show why writing is a necessary piece of the definition of "humanness". We will point to the fact that humans exist the world over who only speak languages with no written forms. We will show how ancient cultures, such as the Inca, were very functional and operable human societies sans writing. Once these steps have been walked through, we can move to the timetables.
It's far easier than that. By Peg's definition, young children and illiterate adults do not qualify as "modern man," because they do not possess written language. This should be sufficient to show that her definition is absurd on its face - certainly people don't "become" human only when they master the written word!
It's ironic - Peg's definition of humanity would fly in the face of nearly every Creationist anti-abortion argument I;ve ever heard of and even open the door to infanticide, since after all, until they can read and write, they aren't human.
The definition of "modern man" should remain a biological definition, just as are all other definitions of other species.

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 Message 52 by Jon, posted 01-03-2009 2:25 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 54 of 86 (492814)
01-03-2009 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jon
01-02-2009 3:43 PM


my apologies
i was sure it was the 2nd link, but when i checked it wasnt there but was one of the links i followed from that page, so i apologise for the confusion.
It was actually here Vina symbols - Wikipedia
i wasn't plagiarizing ... not deliberately anyway lol
Jon writes:
2000 A.D. -6000 yrs = ~4000 B.C. for appearance of 'humanity'
3000 B.C. for appearance of writing.
For a difference of: 1000 years!
So, considering their dissimilar date of appearance”basing this on your dates”, what is it that writing has to do with the quality of being human? And what of societies that to this day have no writing system?
And this takes us back to your 2nd Link about proto writing of 4,000BCE ...
and to the link for the vinca symbols that i posted above.
Perhaps there is an even older writing that has not been discovered yet. Moses got his information about the pre flood world from written records as can be seen by his comment... “This is the book of the generations of Adam.” The use of the word book implies writing. ”Adam’s written history’ (Gen. 2:5 to 5:2)

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 55 of 86 (492818)
01-03-2009 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Rahvin
01-03-2009 3:01 AM


Re: The Real Question
please dont twist my words into something absurd
i was not saying that at all
please name me one animal with a language the doesnt consist of grunts and growls... one animal that writes its history in stone ... one animal that has anything remotely similar to human language and writing
humans of today are unique to this ability and even those who cannot read or write can still speak a language and can 'learn' to read and write it
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 56 of 86 (492820)
01-03-2009 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by anglagard
01-02-2009 5:21 PM


Re: Exact Year
anglagard writes:
Now you do realize that these dates conflict with a lot of evidence from several fields so be prepared for some serious objections from many professionals, myself included if I feel anything is overlooked.
i appreciate that and fully expect it.
Please keep in mind that i have no external evidence for these dates...it is purely based on biblical chronology so if i was a jew and wanted to know when the exodus was for instance, i'd grab my old testament and use the biblical chronology to work it out.

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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5520 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 57 of 86 (492821)
01-03-2009 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Peg
01-03-2009 3:02 AM


Re: my apologies
“This is the book of the generations of Adam.” The use of the word book implies writing. ”Adam’s written history’ (Gen. 2:5 to 5:2)
Oh... If it says so in the Bible, then it must be true...

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 58 of 86 (492822)
01-03-2009 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Peg
01-03-2009 3:25 AM


Re: The Real Question
please dont twist my words into something absurd
i was not saying that at all
please name me one animal with a language the doesnt consist of grunts and growls... one animal that writes its history in stone ... one animal that has anything remotely similar to human language and writing
humans of today are unique to this ability and even those who cannot read or write can still speak a language and can 'learn' to read and write it
So now you're shifting the goalposts to all language, rather than simply the written word? How nice.
Technically, human speech is no different from "grunts and growls."
Bees communicate by dancing - not all that different from human sign language. Ants communicate via scent. And those are insects. Whales sing songs to communicate over long distances. Communication is not unique to humans, and some animal communication is more complex than you would think.
And what about mentally disabled individuals? They cannot learn to read and write - some can't even speak. By your definition, they aren't "modern man." I'm not twisting your words, Peg - your position really is that absurd.

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 59 of 86 (492824)
01-03-2009 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jon
01-03-2009 2:25 AM


Re: The Real Question
Jon writes:
You should be trying to show how her definition is not acceptable, not how her timetables are wrong.
So, let's start off anew on a different foot. We will ask Peg to show why writing is a necessary piece of the definition of "humanness". We will point to the fact that humans exist the world over who only speak languages with no written forms. We will show how ancient cultures, such as the Inca, were very functional and operable human societies sans writing. Once these steps have been walked through, we can move to the timetables.
thanks Jon, this is precisely why i'm here... to challenge my own beliefs and hopefully learn something in the process
this gives me exactly what i need to study
cheers.

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 Message 60 by Brian, posted 01-03-2009 6:58 AM Peg has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 60 of 86 (492833)
01-03-2009 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Peg
01-03-2009 3:47 AM


Re: The Real Question
to challenge my own beliefs and hopefully learn something in the process
You are lacking one vital thing though, an open mind.
You will never learn anything until you approach these subjects from more than one angle. I know complete objectivity is impossible to achieve, but I feel you are far too determined to maintain Bible accuracy that you MAY never seriously challenge anything you believe to be true.
Take this dating thing you have about the Exodus as an example, you simply accept the Old Testament chronology without giving a single thought of how this event would fit in with what is already known about the ancient near east. Archaeologists have been excavating in Egypt, mesopotamia, Palestine, Syria etc. for over 150 years, there is an abundance of evidence that has allowed us to build up a pretty sound background history of the ANE, so why don't you study that and see how the Bible chronology fits with the known evidence?
The father of biblical archaeology was a conservative Christian called William Albright, although technically he wasn't an archaeologist, he was responsible for excavating and gathering an enormous amount of evidence that he simply linked to the biblical accounts. However, such was the weight of the evidence against the biblical accounts of events such as the Exodus, the Conquest, and the period of the Judges, Albright had to change his stance as more evidence was incovered. Albright had to reinterpret the Bible to fit the archaeological evidence, such was the weight of evidence against many biblical accounts.
Have you considered external evidence at all for the dates you give?
If I said to you that there is zero evidence for the Exodus, and zero evidence for King Solomon and his Temple, would you be able to show me that I am incorrect?
If you aren't, then you should really learn a valuable lesson from this. If you seriously are here to learn, then you need to be more critical of the biblical accounts or all you will learn is that you don't really know very much.
If there's any help I can give you regarding the archaeology of the ancient near east feeel free to ask, or if you would like a reading list I am happy to provide it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Peg, posted 01-03-2009 3:47 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Peg, posted 01-04-2009 4:40 AM Brian has replied

  
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