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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 13.0
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 76 of 312 (425415)
10-02-2007 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Taz
10-01-2007 8:22 PM


Taz writes:
As a member of this community, I have a right to share my opinion. You guys have been having the opinion that Jar was unjustly suspended and Faith should come back. I am having my opinion that it is good that you guys are having those opinions, but you guys are dragging this way out of proportion.
Yes, you have a right to share your opinion. Did anyone tell you to stop going on about your opinion? The fellow who tells others to stop talking about their opinions feels suddenly the need to assert his right to express an opinion? Surely you see the humor in that.
An unexamined "we" is not worth citing: undefined, it sounds either awfully large and/or awfully tenuous. Unless one is an appointed spokesperson, it's usually more accurate to speak for oneself. When someone implies that he speaks for a group, it's reasonable to ask for particulars about that group. Often it is a rhetorical device used to imply a majority consensus that may or may not exist.
You, of course, are welcome to use any pronoun you like when expressing your opinions.

Real things always push back.
-William James
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Taz, posted 10-01-2007 8:22 PM Taz has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 77 of 312 (425430)
10-02-2007 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Taz
10-01-2007 6:11 PM


I was under the impression that this was not really about jar being suspended as *he* doesn't care, but rather about the behavior of adminbuz in regards to suspension-related or non-suspension-related moderator action. the conversation about faith is quite separate and prior to this action. you may be confused, however, because jar happens to be one of the most vocal of faith's supporters and that his suspension was as a result of comments made in discussing her potential restoration.
however, i will reiterate. the discussion has not centered on percy's flawed actions in suspending jar, or really on anything to do with faith, but rather on adminbuz' debating while in admin mode among other indiscretions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Taz, posted 10-01-2007 6:11 PM Taz has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 78 of 312 (425512)
10-02-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Hyroglyphx
10-01-2007 10:43 PM


Re: EvC becomes more of a joke
Is going to jail for a week versus the rest of your natural life the same thing too by your rationale?
Are you saying it is not possible to be banned from doing something for a week, a month, a year?
Jar isn't banned.
He is banned from posting.
And I suspect that in your tirade, this is what you were really trying to address.
Tirade lol
Actually, no. There was an impromptu vote in an Admin forum, that unfortunately you aren't privy to, otherwise I would show you. A few admins took a consensus to let her back. The final verdict, as of now, is that she's not allowed to come back. Jar, if I'm not mistaken, requested that she come back in another thread. But in the end, that "worthless bluster" still can't come back. (Charming attitude by the way. You're a gentleman and a scholar.)
We all know that a little email from Faith to Percy would allow her back. Percy has this obsession with trying to make EvC a balanced debating site, this is why he bullied Faith in to being a mod. This is why he has Buzz as an admin and turns a blind eye to Buzz’s abuse of his admin status. Percy want to create an illusion that evc is a fair and balanced site, but he knows himself that the creationist members here are invariably nutballs and really have no clue how to support an argument, it’s as if they have a bit of their brain missing. But, in Percy’s rabid attempt to balance the sides, he now discriminates against those members who can support their arguments, who know what skills are required to investigate a subject to a level that is acceptable of an adult. The creos get away with a lot because they have to, they are incapable of competing on a level playing field because they do not possess the necessary core skills to do so.
Speaking of coming back, wasn't it you that opted to leave EvC because it just didn't stimulate you anymore?
That was one reason. However the other reason was the bias shown towards the fundies, But I did say I would return.
Look, we're not going to go in to a debate about who gets away with more crap.
So why bring it up Einstein?
As far as I'm concerned, most admins don't have some vendetta against an opposing ideology. (However, notice that I said most, not all. And no I'm not going to name names).
You don’t have to. Stevie Wonder can see the bias here.
People are suspended according to their attitudes, which so far, seems to have just as many theists suspended as non-theists.
Only because the theists are allowed far more leeway than the atheists. If there was even handed moderation there would probably be about 2 theists here.
There have been ample opportunities to technically suspend Jar. To my knowledge, he's been suspended a grand total of one time,
You do know that Jar is a theist don’t you, and that you are supporting my stance? You aren't very good at this are you?
which, btw, came from Percy”
Of course it did, he has to keep his lapdog Buzz happy doesn’t he? Percy has this incessant desire to mollify the creos here, he has to or there would be no EvC.
hardly the evil creationist slime monster abusing authority as you presuppose.
What on Earth are you on about here?
Since you come here intermittently,
How do you know how often I come here, I could have been coming here every day as far as you are aware?
I'll simply pass that off as ignorance on your part.
It seems that your child like approach to theology and history has seeped into your every day life as well.
Maybe you should take time to think about what you are writing before you post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-01-2007 10:43 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-02-2007 4:43 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 83 by Stile, posted 10-03-2007 10:23 AM Brian has replied
 Message 108 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-04-2007 4:12 PM Brian has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 79 of 312 (425524)
10-02-2007 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Brian
10-02-2007 3:59 PM


Re: EvC becomes more of a joke
Brian: I will bet you a dollar that Creationists are banned and/or suspended and/or censored (in some fashion) at least twice as much as the Evolutionists?
There is no reason why Faith should be banned indefinetly, only persons posting spam or off topic stuff should be banned. Everyone else that Administration feels should suffer loss of posting privileges should be suspended in terms of days or single digit weeks at the most. Anything more indicates anger caused by the inability to refute (in the eyes of objective persons).
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 10-02-2007 3:59 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Rahvin, posted 10-02-2007 6:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 80 of 312 (425565)
10-02-2007 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Cold Foreign Object
10-02-2007 4:43 PM


Re: EvC becomes more of a joke
Brian: I will bet you a dollar that Creationists are banned and/or suspended and/or censored (in some fashion) at least twice as much as the Evolutionists?
There is no reason why Faith should be banned indefinetly, only persons posting spam or off topic stuff should be banned. Everyone else that Administration feels should suffer loss of posting privileges should be suspended in terms of days or single digit weeks at the most. Anything more indicates anger caused by the inability to refute (in the eyes of objective persons).
You're right - Creationists ARE banned far more frequently than non-Creationists.
However, this is not due to their beliefs. It's due to constantly posting highly offensive and inflammatory comments with the sole purpose of spreading anger and driving away actual debate. It's due to consistently refusing to support arguments with any evidence in the science sections. It's due to personal insults against individual posters. I could go on.
The fact is, the Creationists just tend to resort to such tactics and thus break the forum guidelines more frequently. The mods even give Creationists more slack than the rest, because otherwise all of the Creos would be banned and the site wouldn't exist. Banning is appropriate when, despite multiple suspensions and warnings, a poster continues to break forum guidelines. Eventually, such individuals drive away other members, and become more of a hassle than retaining them as members is worth.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-02-2007 4:43 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-02-2007 10:54 PM Rahvin has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 81 of 312 (425594)
10-02-2007 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Rahvin
10-02-2007 6:37 PM


Re: EvC becomes more of a joke
You're right - Creationists ARE banned far more frequently than non-Creationists.
Glad you agree.
However, this is not due to their beliefs.
Right, it is due to our evidence and arguments.
It's due to constantly posting highly offensive and inflammatory comments with the sole purpose of spreading anger and driving away actual debate.
Since you are a Darwinist this reason has no objective value whatsoever. And it is the epitome of an unsupported assertion to say that persons are being driven away. We could say that the pro-evolution bias of Moderators who are evolutionists is driving these alleged persons away.
It's due to consistently refusing to support arguments with any evidence in the science sections.
Nonsense.
It's due to personal insults against individual posters. I could go on.
Do you know how many times Dr Adequate has called me a liar and never received one warning?
I even insinuate liar and I get a warning.
The fact is, the Creationists just tend to resort to such tactics and thus break the forum guidelines more frequently.
That is what evolutionists say when they cannot refute the evidence and are cornered. They know one of their Mods will arrive and save their face citing Forum rule violations. It is the oldest tactic on this board to escape unpleasant evidence by the evolutionists.
The mods even give Creationists more slack than the rest, because otherwise all of the Creos would be banned and the site wouldn't exist.
Predictable insult phrased as a "legitimate point."
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Rahvin, posted 10-02-2007 6:37 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Modulous, posted 10-03-2007 11:20 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 82 of 312 (425595)
10-02-2007 11:01 PM


The quote in my signature
Token text to make thing work - See below.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, [thread=-19,-112], [thread=-17,-45], [thread=-19,-337], [thread=-14,-1073]
Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.
There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source

Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 83 of 312 (425642)
10-03-2007 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Brian
10-02-2007 3:59 PM


Higher Debating Standard
To make things simple I've used the horrible classifications of "Evo" and "Creo" within this post. I hope we can all understand what's trying to be conveyed.
This isn't so much a particular reply to Brian as it is an attempt to clarify some of the implications that this site is somehow meant to be an equal battle-ground for Evo's and Creo's. I don't understand how anyone could be so dense as to spend a day scanning posts here and walk away with that impression.
Brian writes:
Percy wants to create an illusion that evc is a fair and balanced site...
Are you sure about that? As far as I've ever read, Percy and this site have been extremely clear that this site is incredibly biased against the Evo side. It's been repeated many times, even by Percy, that Evo's are held to "a much higher debating standard" than Creo's. I would be very surprised if you or anyone else posting in this thread was unaware.
But, in Percy’s rabid attempt to balance the sides, he now discriminates against those members who can support their arguments, who know what skills are required to investigate a subject to a level that is acceptable of an adult. The creos get away with a lot because they have to, they are incapable of competing on a level playing field because they do not possess the necessary core skills to do so.
I've never seen a "rabid attempt to balance the sides". All I've seen is simple application of the rules Percy has spelled out. The rules which are biased against Evo's.
And, like any board, violate the clearly spelled out rules and you get banned. Temporarily or indefinitely depending on the severity.
As everyone here has posted much more than I have, I'm sure you also understand the clear procedures of this board:
Evo's are held to a higher debating standard than Creo's.
This means, of course, that the site is not balanced, not fair, and not even. It is biased against Evo's. If you want to participate, you'll have to accept that. Creo's are allowed a lot more lee-way with regards to personal attacks and veiled insults. When an Evo pulls this sort of stunt, it is well known that a harsher whip will be used against them.
I found Jar's suspension in accordance with the plan of this website, and fully justifiable by how this place is ran. In fact, I was suprised at how long he was able to continue repeating those facts and statements without any effort at all to engage in some sort of academic debate.
I fully believe what Jar said was true, honest, and valid. But not here, not at EvC where Evo's are held to a higher debating standard. It didn't make sense. And Jar should know better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 10-02-2007 3:59 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 9:19 AM Stile has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 84 of 312 (425650)
10-03-2007 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Cold Foreign Object
10-02-2007 10:54 PM


Re: EvC becomes more of a joke
We could say that the pro-evolution bias of Moderators who are evolutionists is driving these alleged persons away.
Here is a list of people who are suspended (in recent history):
-messenjah of one2 (along with various multiple registrations)
catman62@bellsouth.net
DR Adequate
Ihategod/Vashgun
jar
John A. Davison
jordo
Richbee
saa_gomez
susan8800
At this time, plenty of anti-evolutionists retain their permissions to post here. They are rarely given indefinite suspensions, and as you know through experience, many of those indefinite suspensions are lifted after requests from the suspended member (via email) or people on their behalf.
If you think any of the above deserve re-instating then make your case. However, your overall point is without base unless you can advise me of a creationist-run board (that is still being moderated by creationists) that has a more lenient policy regarding their 'opponents'. Really - I'd like to know, I'd probably sign up. As it stands I fear getting indefinitely banned without warning as I have at other creationist run boards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-02-2007 10:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 85 of 312 (425664)
10-03-2007 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Admin
09-29-2007 6:53 AM


Re: Clarification on Jar
Admin explaining Jar's suspension writes:
I viewed Jar's post as just yet another regrettable expression lying on the border of a Forum Guidelines violation that makes moderators jobs more difficult, but it didn't seem like suspension material. But Jar's challenging and dismissive reply to AdminBuzsaw in Message 23 seemed to me, when combined with his pattern of similar responses and with his not taking to heart any of my several low-level cautions over the past months, sufficient to justify a suspension, if for no other reason to make clear my determination to maintain civility here.
Let it be known that this is an objective, well reasoned explanation for suspension. It tells everyone plainly that when Admin guides this board in a specific direction, and when he drops hints and clues that the direction is not being followed, suspension will result. It is a schematic that applies to everyone, but it just so happened that in this case an evolutionist failed to take note.
I could of easily wrote what Jar wrote about Creationists and substituted Evolutionists since I feel the same way. I think Admin is also saying that both sides already believe the other side are filthy rotten liars, but stop saying these things since it leads to the destruction of the Creation-Evolution debate, the reason for being of this board.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Admin, posted 09-29-2007 6:53 AM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-03-2007 5:06 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 86 of 312 (425669)
10-03-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Cold Foreign Object
10-03-2007 4:30 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
Uh ... we already know that you display all the symptoms of paranoid insanity. You don't need to labor the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 10-03-2007 4:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 87 of 312 (425670)
10-03-2007 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object
09-30-2007 7:30 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
I could not be anymore happier that Jar finally got what was coming to him even though the actual message that landed him in the slammer was rather tame and predictable since he is an Atheist-evolutionist who claims to be a Christian. If I were Admin I would ban Jar for life until he sends an email to EvC profusely apologizing for his incessant wicked behavior, including permission to post it publicly. Then he should be forced to shave his head and tossed into Showcase to wait for likes of a Kuresu or CK to come and visit him.
I'm not even going to comment on this, I'm just going to quote it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-30-2007 7:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 88 of 312 (425676)
10-03-2007 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object
09-30-2007 7:30 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
quote:
I could not be anymore happier that Jar finally got what was coming to him even though the actual message that landed him in the slammer was rather tame and predictable since he is an Atheist-evolutionist who claims to be a Christian. If I were Admin I would ban Jar for life until he sends an email to EvC profusely apologizing for his incessant wicked behavior, including permission to post it publicly. Then he should be forced to shave his head and tossed into Showcase to wait for likes of a Kuresu or CK to come and visit him.
  —Ray
After trimming off the loveless rhetoric, seconded
(It is worth noting that a particular section of Evc will always consider Jar to occupy a postion not all that dissimilar to the more senior of 'The Screwtape Letters' personalities. Unless Jar is born again at some point- that is.)
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-30-2007 7:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-03-2007 5:55 PM iano has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 89 of 312 (425678)
10-03-2007 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by iano
10-03-2007 5:44 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
After trimming off the loveless rhetoric, seconded
I would also have no quarrel with CTD if he never actually said anything, which is what you'd get if you "trimmed off the loveless rhetoric".
After you've "trimmed off" the lies and the hatred, what else is there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by iano, posted 10-03-2007 5:44 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by iano, posted 10-03-2007 6:10 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 90 of 312 (425680)
10-03-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Dr Adequate
10-03-2007 5:55 PM


Re: Clarification on Jar
quote:
After you've "trimmed off" the lies and the hatred, what else is there?
I didn't say Ray was telling lies. I would say he is telling the truth in many respects. It's just a bit loveless..s'all. Kind of forgetting that Ray was as lost as Jar is once upon a time. Not that I wouldn't fall into the same trap as Ray it must be said.
Jar is not a Christian. Never has been (but hopefully will be). From Rays perspective (and mine) Jar is a 5th Columnist - and could expect to be (as per type) particularily reviled by those who recognise him for what he is.
Where it not that we are called to love our enemies.
Christianity is indeed a crutch. Made from thorns..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-03-2007 5:55 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by macaroniandcheese, posted 10-03-2007 7:10 PM iano has replied

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