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| Author | Topic: How to feed and keep the animals on the Ark? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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allenroyboy Inactive Member |
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allenroyboy Inactive Member |
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Rei Member (Idle past 7039 days)  Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
quote: Translation: We're going to assume juveniles of all animals, even though many animals cannot survive without being nurtured and taught by their parents. Plus, the Bible says "the male and his mate" (kind of hard for whiptail lizards, wouldn't you say)? We're going to severely limit the number of dinosaurs on board. We're going to take *no* insects or arthropods on board, contradicting the Bible itself. We're only going to collect animals at the genus and family levels (despite the bible listing many "kinds" at what is clearly the species level) (since the donkey and horse are both early in the old testament, *wow*, they evolved fast!). Screw the freshwater animals - they'll mutate to adapt in days, a miracle of evolution! Who needs precariously balanced coral reef environments, for one of thousands of examples! We're going to use modern pelletting and preservation systems in the bronze age. We're going to provide a variety of diet that zoos have entire massive kitchen staffs for a fraction of the species, and use abstract feeding methods that have never worked in history.
quote: Translation: All large animals will be trained to go to the bathroom in buckets, on command, at the same interval between species (clearly he's never been near a large animal going to the bathroom). Urine will be expected to automatically drain out of the boat (yeah, urine goes upwards in Woodmorape's world). While the numbers are conveniently left sketchy, the amount of people needed to take out the mass of waste produced 24/7 are thus barely less than Noah's entire crew - assuming that they can immediately go from animal to animal in quick succession.
quote: Actually, his book *doesn't* address how a constantly raining, 100% humidity environment is expected to keep everything dry and cool (and non-rotting, I might mention  Perhaps Noah is supposed to develop some lacquer for the wood in the same plant he makes his pelletted food? ). He actually suggests the cooling method as "opening the windows" (hope there's no rough seas in this flood that is carving canyons and depositing mountains!). Great plan, Woody! Now, how do you take care of the polar bears and the emperor penguins? Collect icebergs on the way? In short: You don't get to get off just by posting chapters from Woodmorape's lousy book. You have to actually discuss his claims. ------------------"Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Rei Member (Idle past 7039 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
Biology was hardly a field in Darwin's time, so it's not shocking. It was little more than zoology and identification. Of course, the basic tenents (not all the details, of course) of Darwin's work is accepted by virtually all professionals working in the field of biology and other scientists, after a century and a half of study. How many PHDs? Well, you know how a lot of creationists like to show their list of PHDs who believe in Creationism? Check out "Project Steve" http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=18
As for Kuban, he has a BA in Biology, and is president of the Fossil society of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History (and a number of other palentology societies) . Not to mention that most creationists who have studied the Paluxy case accept his work as correct  It's sad that there have been so many creationist hoaxes and irresponsible work like that, which get treated as if they're published in a dozen peer-reviewed journals.  I (and even most creationists) can only name two cases, through the entire history of archaeology, where that has occured with evolutionists. If you'd like, I could rattle about two dozen or so such creationist ones in the past 20 years alone (and they keep repeating them even after retraction/obvious disproval! Why can't you get peer review or check your sources before you publish??? Or ask the author whose material you're citing if they agree with your wild interpretation of their work, or look up whether what you're doing is the way a scientific procedure is actually done before you claim that you've disproved it with your incorrect failed result, etc... And don't get me started on the "fossils" and "pictures" that have turned up over the years Or the degree mills.... (ok, I'll stop) ) ------------------"Illuminant light, illuminate me." [This message has been edited by Rei, 09-10-2003] [This message has been edited by Rei, 09-10-2003]
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Brian Member (Idle past 4985 days)  Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
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John Inactive Member |
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allenroyboy Inactive Member |
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allenroyboy Inactive Member |
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allenroyboy Inactive Member |
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allenroyboy Inactive Member |
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allenroyboy Inactive Member |
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Rei Member (Idle past 7039 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
First off, let me thank you for finally doing more than simply asserting things to the effect of "Woodmorappe says it will work.".
quote: My apologies for saying "all", I misread. However, he chose juveniles of everything big enough to matter. And, large animals tend to be the ones who need parents to bring them up to survive more often. He's flat out cheating. And contradicting the Bible, at that. And do you know why he's cheating? Because he undoubtedly discovered that using adults of large animals increases the overall bulk 13-50 fold! Additionally, the mortality rate of juveniles of some species is obscenely high - especially the ones that he finds essential to bring juveniles of (namely, Sauropods). A juvenile brachosaurus alone is believed to have grown at about 10 feet in height and over 15 tons per year.
quote: Um, no. They only take on the roles when "mating". There is none that is "under the control" of a particular hormone for the long term - you'll note that they switch roles. And you ignore that *There Are No Male Whiptail Lizards*.
quote: An apparent 50-70% of "Woodmorappe"'s (BTW, you do know that that's a pseudonym, right? And that he's quoted himself as if it's a different person ) animals are known only from fossils. Yet, this isn't the slightest bit accurate. The vast majority of genera of large mammals in the world, for example, are known only from fossils, and more are constantly being found, with no indication of slowing. Concerning Sauropods, he doesn't state that that 12 is an overestimate - because it's not even close. There are *87 genera* of sauropods. Woody puts the far out claim that 12 are "firmly established" and another 12 are "fairly well established". Then the number he uses? 12. And he makes them juveniles at that. What preposterous nonsense!
quote: What it says was brought on the ark was, to quote the hebrew, remes (pronounced reh-mes). His "nostril" claim is garbage. Remes means "creeping thing", and was used throughout the bible to refer specifically to insects.
quote: Did you actually write this without laughing? "The genus is the smallest division of plants and animals that can usually be indentified without scientific study"? Yeah, I can't tell the difference between a horse and a zebra. I can't tell the difference between a coyote and a jackal. I can't tell the difference between a housecat and a lion. I can't tell the difference between a sheep and an urial. What on *EARTH* was he smoking when he penned that line? Look, he can claim that "scientists define it as this", but that doesn't make it true. species interbreed - Google Search Pick your source - let's say, the American Museum of Natural History? They discuss the two chief definitions of species used by scientists: BSC (Biological Species Concept) and PSC (Phylogenetic Species Concept). BSC is related to interbreeding. PSC is related to clearly distinct geographical and physical traits. PSC actually includes more diversity in the definition of species than BSC. Current taxa are a mix of BSC and PSC, but are mostly still BSC. The list in Leviticus is subfamily and family???? Ok, let's take a look, shall we? Let's take a look at a few of the kinds of birds mentioned in the bible. Eagle. Vulture. Osprey. Buzzard. "Kites of all kinds". "Ravens of all kind". Ostrich. Nighthawk. Seagull. "Hawks of all kinds". The little owl. The cormorant. The great owl. The white owl. The pellican. The carrion vulture. The stork. "Herons of all kinds". The hoopoe. The bat . The turtledove. The swallow. (I could go on, but let's just look at these, ne? ) Let's look at what modern scientists recognise as living in Israel. (http://www.science.co.il/Bird-Species.asp?s=falconiformes for example). The "eagle" seems to represent the aquila genus. There are three vultures (I ran into two in my short search of the bible), so we're looking at pretty close to species here. Osprey is a species, Pandion haliaetus (only one lives in Israel). There are two buzzards, so it's either a genus or subgenus. Kites of all kinds clearly indicates species, as does "ravens of all kind". Only one member of Struthio - the ostrich - lives in the region (only member of it's family, too); it's accurate to the species level. Nighthawks only have one genus (and even one family) in the region - they're very specific in their form in Israel, like Ostriches; kind here is accurate to the genus level. The owl descriptions are different from modern terms to make a determination, but it is probably either genus or subfamily. Only one genus of pelicans exists in Israel, and the term "pelican" is thus accurate to the genus level; same with cormorants. Herons are subfamily. Hoopoe is species (alaemon alaudipes). In short, the most common definition was the species level. The next most common was the genus/subgenus level. Is this special for birds? Not at all! A glaring example to anyone who reads the bible is horses and donkeys, but mammals as a whole are even more representative of the species level in the region than birds. Hey, in Genesis 47:17, when Joseph is alive (about 600 years after the flood), horses are referenced a number of times. Donkeys were given to Abram by the Pharao in Genesis 12:16! There are both wild and dmoestic donkeys in Gen. 16:12. Dear YVHV, that's fast evolution there! If evolution can happen that fast, nothing can stop it!
quote: And Mr. Pseudonym quite clearly knows nothing about fish. Look, I've helped my parents take care of their reef tank. You wouldn't believe how sensitive those things are to changes in temperature and salinity. Even moving a rock around can throw the ecosystem out of whack. A flood that is supposed to carve out massive canyons and deposit mountains has nice salinity stratification? Temperature too, right? And they all manage to keep all animals in the flood precisely in the salinity and temperature they were initially at? Wow, I guess anything can happen with magic! I'm picturing this floating coral reef, anenomes everywhere, clownfish desparately clinging onto its favorite anenome (yes, they pick favorites) for dear life, staying right near the surface with nice warm water and perfect salinity... an octopus hunting, plucking up shellfish floating through the water... brittle stars trying to hold their shelter of corals and rocks together so that they don't get devoured... I'm picturing fish who have short lifespans doing their egg laying in this, as if everything were perfectly normal... Meanwhile, the grand canyon is getting carved, multiple eruptions are forming basalt in the columbia river basin....
quote: Um, you know absolutely nothing about coral reefs. Sit down with someone who owns a reef tank for a few hours. The porous rocks and dead coral are filled with tiny polyps which can't survive outside of them, and need a nice, calm environment to survive. The corals and anenomes themselves may well retract for a week if you simply *scare them*. If you add a new coral to a new, perfect environment, it often takes months before it will adapt, and it's critical that you feed them properly during this time. You have to make sure that the right combinations of fish are in there, or they'll tear it to bits. Everything in a reef is very delicate and interconnected; if you're not careful, you're going to destroy it. There's a reason that damaged reefs are slow to repair *in an ideal, calm environment*, and are a hot button issue amongst conservationists. What do we have here, a nice, "fluffy" catastrophic flood, that carried and nutured this delicate environment, floating at the surface, and then destroyed it "gently" or set it down so that it could carefully redevelop? (reversing order of quotes before for reasons of answering...)
quote: Modest pressure applied to hay for a long period of time is rotten hay. Besides, Noah's plant needs to process 110lbs per day *of output* to reach Woody's number's. If running slowly, you're going to need something the size of a factory to make. Which would require a massive iron forge. But, as stated, low pressure isn't enough. Not only does *real* pelletting require high pressure, it also requires high temperatures to kill off the bacteria and to get the food dry before it rots away. Or, does your special pre-biblical world have hay that doesn't rot? And these low pressure pellets which store for 100 years, right? And all of the large animals can eat the pelletted food
quote: Yeah, Noah had a high-temperature compressor plant capable of rapidly processing 20 tons of food pear year, assuming that he could build it in one year (110 lbs per day), with magical food preservation that lasts for 100 years. And, of course, with his high technology, he made his boat out of wood and pitch.
quote: Look - why on earth do you think that zoos employ hundreds, for a fraction of the animals? No, you don't get away with saying "look it up", because it's unanswered. Do you think that they're idiots? Do you think that it takes *less* labor in cramped conditions? It takes hundreds because The Requirements To Care For Animals Increases With The Diversity Of The Animals In Addition To Their Numbers. What is so difficult for you to understand about this? Why don't zoos train all large animals to go to the bathroom on command? Because the animals don't. Why don't they feed all animals the same food? Because they'll die. Why don't they apply the tineist level of attention to each animal? Because disease will spread not just through one type, but across species. Why do they minimize mixing of animals? Because even if the animals magically aren't hostile to each other, large animals *accidentally* hurt or kill each other with ease. "Woodmorappe" is claiming to know better about how to care for every animal on earth than the entire experience of every zoo in human history combined. He is claiming to know more about food pelletting than every farmer who's shipped livestock in the history of mankind up until the advent of modern machinery and all of those involved in the shipping. He claims that massive wood and pitch ships can survive weather worse than that which sinks steel ships. He claims feats of construction more advanced than that which took entire shipyards. He claims massive feats of evolution. He claims magical non-rotting everything. He claims miraculous survivals on floating vegetation of things like leafcutter ants and their fungus culture to intricately balanced ecosystems like parasitic wasps which lay eggs in the bodies of tarantulas, which survive on a large quantity of insects consumed, to aphids which parasite live plants... He claims miraculous seed preservation via methods that have *never* preserved a seed for a year, let alone manage to preserve every seed and spore currently found on Earth, from water-sensitive cactus seeds to delicate, tiny african violet seeds. And worst of all, he flatly contradicts the bible that he is supposed to be defending, on many fronts. There are reasons why what "Woody" proposes aren't done: They are complete and utter BS. From aardvark food to rapid zebra evolution post flood, "Woodmorappe" is full of the same stuff that he claims can be collected in buckets and won't stink up the ark due to its heavenly circulation and refrigeration system. ------------------"Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Rei Member (Idle past 7039 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
quote: Right, it's ok if *some* animals sit around in their own feces. They won't get sick, everything perfect in Woodmorappe's world.
quote: Right, and that works all the better. It's easy to clean manure off the ground - zoos do it so quickly, right?
quote: They're trained to do it on command. I'd call that an interval of time.
quote: Yes, Noah and his massive urine and feces tanks, and system to raise them. Are you familiar at all with how much effort it took to transport even horses on Roman ships, for example? Let alone things like elephants, or even worse brachiosaurs? The average elephant produces 50 pounds of dung *every day* (naturally, Woodmorappe only brings one pair - african, indian, pygmy, etc, all evolve). That's 100 lbs for the elephants. Take a guess on the brachiosaurs!!! Assuming weight ratios are indicative of dung ratios, the pair of brachiosaurs, that's 1300 lbs of dung per day. There are *12* species of sauropods on Woody's boat, and on a real boat, which takes a tiny fraction of the sauropods discovered so far - ignoring the rest, and ignoring those not yet found. Just assuming an average of 1/3 that much dung, we're talking that Sauropods alone are producing 5200 lbs of dung on Woody's boat, and 38,000 lbs on a real boat. *From the sauropods alone*. To store it (remember - no disease in Woodmorappe's world!), he has to cheat even further on the number of animals - heavily. Why doesn't he just say "they're in deep freeze and stacked one on top of another"?
quote: Oh silly me, that makes such a *huge* difference!
quote: "Changes per hour" is pseudoscience; anyone who tried to design a structure based on such a principal should be shot (figuratively, of course ).
quote: First off, that's relative humidity - just a nitpick. 57% humidity isn't even close. Read about raising desert tortoises some time, as an example - unless you have a magical disease-free world, they get sick very easily if you don't keep the humidity to a bare minimum. To make it worse, animals are not creating just heat - they're releasing *HUMIDITY*. The situation is getting worse, not better. Note how you didn't address the emperor penguins and polar bears. So, how are all these animals doing when they walked to the ark? The ark is at one specific climatic location in the world. Let me guess - they all evolved to different climates afterward, perhaps, but were temperate species before? What amazing evolutionary prowess they have! (let's not get into their long walk home... ).
quote: *Completely coated*? That's going to take pretty much as much pitch as wood (you don't just apply pitch like a lacquer, it's thick and horridly sticky). If he's *extracting it from wood* (which is actually resin, not pitch, but we'll play make-believe - note that the bible says ".. from resinous wood, and seal it with tar, inside and out" - they know the difference!)), the wood to make that pitch will be exponentially more than the wood to make the ark. Even the most resinous of woods (such as pines) is only a very small fraction resin. Even if it's a whopping 10% (Wow! How would the tree stay standing?), that's 10 times more wood than to build the ark. How's Noah's saw mill doing? And his pitch plant? And his pelletting plant? And his forge? Hell, why don't we just give him a space ship while we're at it? ------------------"Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Cthulhu Member (Idle past 5878 days)  Posts: 273 From: Roe Dyelin Joined: |
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