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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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...but the idea is that the Flood deposited all the sedimentary layers that contain fossils, and in the case of mountains this would have happened before the mountains had been raised. After the Flood, the fossil-containing strata were pushed up to become mountains, which is why the fossils are IN the mountain and not just on it. Essentially, you are stating the mainstream geologic theory of the sediment/rock origins and the mountain building. EXCEPT you want to compress it into a young Earth time frame. The above quoted does not even require any sort of special flood - It works just fine with conventional sea levels. Most limestones are the products of the accumulation of biological detritus. While it is conceivable that some of the detritus might have been "washed in" from elsewhere, there is much evidence that lifeforms were actually living and dying in the positions they are found as fossils. Years of living and dying on one horizon, followed by years of living and dying at another horizon above, followed by years of living and dying at another horizon above, etc. etc. etc. The limestone formation process does not fit into young-Earthism. Nor does a mountain building event fit into young-Earthism. In order to fit such into young-Earthism, you must invoke magic, because is does not work as any variety of natural process. You are saying God created with false evidence of old age. Moose Edited by Minnemooseus, : Call it a typo fix ("There" into "The")Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The above quoted does not even require any sort of special flood - It works just fine with conventional sea levels. Most limestones are the products of the accumulation of biological detritus. While it is conceivable that some of the detritus might have been "washed in" from elsewhere, there is much evidence that lifeforms were actually living and dying in the positions they are found as fossils. Years of living and dying on one horizon, followed by years of living and dying at another horizon above, followed by years of living and dying at another horizon above, etc. etc. etc. There limestone formation process does not fit into young-Earthism. Nor does a mountain building event fit into young-Earthism. In order to fit such into young-Earthism, you must invoke magic, because is does not work as any variety of natural process. You are saying God created with false evidence of old age. That's why it is the Fantastic Flying Flood Fantasy. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Nor does a mountain building event fit into young-Earthism. In order to fit such into young-Earthism, you must invoke magic, because is does not work as any variety of natural process. You are saying God created with false evidence of old age. The same is true of archaeology and paleontology and related sciences. In order to support the young earth belief, one has to deny, obfuscate, ignore, misrepresent, or otherwise hand-wave away the dating evidence. If one can't do that, the dating evidence by itself disproves both the young earth belief and the "exact" date posited for the global flood. There is overwhelming archaeological evidence that there was no global flood during historic times, so there goes the "exact" date of 4348 years ago. That is why we see the global flood not being placed at the "exact" date of 4348 years ago, but at the KT or even the PT boundary or even older, sometimes being said to have deposited the lowest layers of the Grand Canyon some 1.8 billion years ago! What we are seeing is not science but anti-science, in other words, religious apologetics.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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It's worth pointing out that the YEC timescale is less than half they claim they have. If mountains were still forming, continents shifting and animals changing and migrating at startling rates at the times that we have written historical records from - at least 485 BC for people like Herodotus, the 'father of history' - someone would have written about it.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I worked it all out a few years ago. The tectonic movement would have been imperceptible to normal observation after a few hundred years. During the first weeks you could have stood on the western edge of Europe and watched the Americas sail away a few feet per day, but there was nobody there at the time to see it. Probably too much volcanism there at the time anyway.
And animals didn't change at any unusual rate at all, same as today. But they did spread out far and wide, and within a few hundred years of the Ark's landing would have reached the ends of the earth. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think it quite possible without magic, but since you don't I'll just go back to the main evidence for the Flood and against the Time Scale which is the rapidly deposited strata with their abundance of fossils.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Ah ok, so long as you've worked it out.....
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: During the first weeks you could have stood on the western edge of Europe and watched the Americas sail away a few feet per day, but there was nobody there at the time to see it. Probably too much volcanism there at the time anyway. I don't see any of this global terraforming in the Noah bible story - am I reading a different book? I think it's been pointed out that continents moving and mountains forming at those kind of rates would have created enough heat to boil the oceans dry and burn everything on land to a cinder on it. But I expect you've found a way around that too.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: The existence of some rapidly deposited strata is hardly evidence against the scientific view. The existence of strata that were NOT rapidly deposited is far better evidence against Flood Geology. The abundance of fossils is also evidence against Flood geology - there are too many, as has been discussed previously in this forum.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... The abundance of fossils is also evidence against Flood geology - there are too many, as has been discussed previously in this forum. And that is what this topic is about -- the marine shells in their totality disprove rather than prove a flood event.
(Faith): ... I think it quite possible without magic, but since you don't I'll just go back to the main evidence for the Flood and against the Time Scale which is the rapidly deposited strata with their abundance of fossils Says the person who can't get past the tree rings in the Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 thread, that by themselves destroy the YEC delusional "timescale" ... When you're living in fantasy land you can make up anything -- scouring flood waters in one place, magic carpet flood waters in another, that lift up and transport whole marine ecosystems so gently they don't break fan corals or the stems of brachiopods. Whatever you "need" explained, can be fantasized to fit in the genie bottle. But hey, you weren't there so you can't say it didn't happen ... (riiiiiiiiiiiight) Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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RAZD writes: magic carpet flood waters in another, that lift up and transport whole marine ecosystems so gently they don't break fan corals or the stems of brachiopods Whilst simultaneously moving entire continents thousands of miles in a couple of hundred years, raising mountains and creating global volcanic disturbances but somehow keeping every 'kind' alive, thriving, travelling, breeding and evolving and - in a so far unimagined way - reseeding the world Truly miraculous. Praise be!Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This is the song and dance, complete with hand-waving and wails of denial. Because it is always the details that flummox creationist facile "explanations" based on ignorance of the total evidence.
Faith Message 192:
The marine fossils in rock layers at the tops of mountains suggest deposition by the Flood before those mountains existed. Then tectonic pressure pushed them up all over the earth so that all those fossils are embedded there in the rocks at the tops of the mountains. RAZD Message 203:
The marine fossils in rock layers at the tops of mountains suggest deposition There fixed it for you.
Where are you getting this "decades" stuff? This is just the usual situation of the deposition of limestone layers containing dead marine creatures one after another in the Flood. Note the length of time needed for each layer to be a mature ecosystem -- some brachiopods were 30 years old when they died and were gradually buried by silt as new brachiopods grew around and on top of them ... brachiopods have growth lines, like tree rings. Even one layer means marine growth lasting longer than the reported time for the purported magic flying flood. Tens of layers means centuries of growth, hundreds of layers means millennia. Faith Message 205:
Nothing would have grown in the Flood. All the Flood did was carry things around. Your "mature marine growth" had to have been there Why do you insist they had to grow in the Flood rather than already have grown in a marine environment before the Flood simply picked them up and buried them in what became a sedimentary rock? RAZD Message 207:
You just exchanged one problem for another -- the length of time needed to grow those layers over layers over layers exceeds the time you pretend lapsed between your purported creation date and your purported flood date. Faith Message 208:
The layers did not grow over layers over layers, the layers were made by the Flood, depositing one dead-creature-laden sediment onto another. RAZD Message 209:
And now you have created another problem: where is all the real estate that those layers came from? The whole world is covered in multiple layers. Everywhere you look it is layers on top of layers. Faith: crickets: chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... When you have to keep making up more and more fantastical "explanations" to maintain your original fantasy you end up with more and more ridiculous "explanations" ... it's like lying, except that the only one that believes you appears to be you. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You want to know where the sediments came from? They were washed off the land and churned up from the ocean, haven't I said that often enough?:
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: You want to know where the sediments came from? They were washed off the land and churned up from the ocean, haven't I said that often enough?: And once again you provide evidence that Young Earth is simply as silly as the Biblical flood nonsense. To wash sediments off the land and churn up sediments from the ocean you first must make sediments. And we know how long it takes to make sediments so we can also know how long it had to take to make the sediments you claim your imaginary flood washed off the land and churned up from the ocean. And that comes to billions of years Faith. Young Earth and the Biblical flood are simply really stupid ideas that have been refuted for hundreds of years.
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edge Member (Idle past 1734 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I worked it all out a few years ago. The tectonic movement would have been imperceptible to normal observation after a few hundred years. During the first weeks you could have stood on the western edge of Europe and watched the Americas sail away a few feet per day, but there was nobody there at the time to see it. Probably too much volcanism there at the time anyway.
So, with all of this catastrophic tectonism, there were no tsunamis and no noticeable earthquakes? And, about all of that volcanism... you really think that no one noticed? I mean if you compressed 4 ga of volcanism into a couple thousand years, that would make the planet permanently toxic. Add to that the extraterrestrial impacts and solar events. Do you have any idea where we would be now?
And animals didn't change at any unusual rate at all, same as today. But they did spread out far and wide, and within a few hundred years of the Ark's landing would have reached the ends of the earth.
So, all kinds of animals including large mammals could repopulate the earth, but humans couldn't record so many global catastrophic events? You have just annihilated YEC. Maybe you should work it out for a few more years.
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