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Author Topic:   This Forum is Biased
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 16 of 37 (42689)
06-12-2003 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dan Carroll
06-12-2003 12:44 PM


Re: This Forum is Biased
---------------------------------------------------------------------A bishop visits a high school and is having a chat with a class full of kids.
He asks the first one what his beliefs are and he says that he is a Christian, reborn by the Blood of Christ, saved by his sacrifice and grace.
The Bishop then asked the next child, he said much the same.
After asking a few he comes to this boy.
Bishop 'Well my son what is your faith'
Boy 'I am an atheist sir'
Bishop 'an atheist, God help you, why are you an atheist?'
Boy 'Well my dad is an atheist'
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bishop 'Oh so your dad is an atheist so that makes you an athiest'
Boy 'Well I suppose so'
Bishop 'Well what if your dad was a wife beater, or a racist, or spread lies, or beat up his children?'
Boy 'Ah, well then I would be a Christian'
-----------------------------------------------------
this is one joke that was below the belt , the term christian means 'follower of Christ' not any more it seems!!!!!!!!!(that one hurt)
also i dont mean to attack schrafinator but she seems a bit against christians, i think she attacks a lot i am going to get some qoutes on what she says!!!
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-12-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Dan Carroll, posted 06-12-2003 12:44 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 06-12-2003 1:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 21 by zephyr, posted 06-12-2003 3:07 PM mike the wiz has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 37 (42690)
06-12-2003 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by mike the wiz
06-12-2003 1:10 PM


Re: This Forum is Biased
'The Fundie preacher just kept saying that people who didn't believe like he did were going to Hell, and he basically came across as a rigid, bigoted, close-minded, angry prick.' ok this is what schrafinator said aginst a preacher , but a true christian is not bigoted (not a great example but she is harsh on christians)
also evos seem so eager and trigger happy when it comes to christians calling us superstitious and 'hypocrites'. blimey do i really have to try and love enemies as myself God , she makes it very hard.she must think all christians are the taliban , lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by mike the wiz, posted 06-12-2003 1:10 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 2:01 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 2:58 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 34 by nator, posted 06-16-2003 1:40 PM mike the wiz has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 18 of 37 (42691)
06-12-2003 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
06-12-2003 1:32 PM


Re: This Forum is Biased
she makes it very hard.she must think all christians are the taliban , lol
I doubt that, she seems to be a reasonable, thinking individual. I don't either. As 'they' say some of my best friends are Christian.
What I am concerned about is how a line can be drawn that isn't too easily crossed.
Once it is ok to start taking things as 'true' just because someone says so or once it is ok to believe things just because you want to then where does it stop?
There seems to be two major groupings of ways we come to take things as 'reasonable' or 'true' or at least reasonably true. We all use some of both. Some of us use a lot more of one than the other.
One way is to take things on "faith" (and that can have lots of shades of meanings).
The other way is to attempt to take information in, make a decision on how reliable it might be and to reason out a most reasonable conclusion. The best of this approach recognizes that we are all easily fooled into seeing what we want and being biased. To avoid this we seek input from others and don't trust what we see if we can't make the information available to others including someone who is at least a bit skeptical of our conclusions. This kind of reasoning allows for some comfort with the uncomfortable situations of uncertainty, it recognizes how hard it can be to come to an absolute final conclusion.
The second approach allows some chance, though difficult, of actually reaching a consensus resolution of opposing views. I can not see how the first approach ever can. If one arrives at something by faith and someone else believes just as much in an opposing view then I see no way of ever making any progress in resolving what may be contradictory views.
The "faith" approach allows for, it seems to me, anything at all being an acceptable conclusion. The Taliban's view is just as valid as the Pope's, a YEC's or an Islamists, a Hindu mystics or anyone elses. How can we draw a line between views of simple, deep religious faith and extremism?
In the same vein I object to astrology. Not because it is, in itself, very often harmful but because it allows for a poor quality of rational thinking and decision making. If one can accept this then one can easily move to "alternative medicine" for a cold and from there to dying because of poor decisions based on irrational thinking about appropriate care.
It isn't the specific faith or belief. It is the damage it does to rational thinking. Irrationality can be a fatal disease under some circumstances.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 06-12-2003 1:32 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 06-12-2003 3:18 PM NosyNed has replied

Dr Cresswell
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 37 (42697)
06-12-2003 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by FFGFollower
06-11-2003 4:05 PM


Re: This Forum is Biased
Hmmm, this seems to happen on most forums. Some newbie comes in, posts one or two messages that are in some way inflammatory, trollish, spamish or otherwise contrary to sensible discussion. The hardworking and dedicated moderators step in to enable discussion to continue. And lo and behold, their hard work and diligence is rewarded by accusations of bias.
Hats off to the administrators here. You've got a great place here for sensible and reasoned discussion.
Alan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by FFGFollower, posted 06-11-2003 4:05 PM FFGFollower has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 37 (42702)
06-12-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
06-12-2003 1:32 PM


but a true christian is not bigoted
Who decides who the "true christians" are? This is the "true scotsman" fallacy. It's like, you say that scotsmen never commit crimes, and then I open a newspaper and point out the case of Angus McDougal, the notorious doughnut thief, and you counter with "Ah, but true scotsmen never commit crimes."
See the fallacy? It's just moving the goalposts, basically. The truth is, there are many people who identify as christians and also do bad things. Just like any member of any other group. (s-f writer Larry Niven says "there is no cause so noble one can not find fools following it."
What gets the goats of Schraf (and I, as well) is christians who come in and say things like "If everybody was christian, no one would rape and kill. Become a christian." The implication is that christians are better people - but the evidence is, they're just as bad as anybody.
So we're not trying to say that all christians are rapists or murderers or whatever, we're just trying to say that as many christians are rapists and murderers as any other religion or group. It's more of an attempt to deflate a holier-than-thou attitude rather than desparage an entire faith tradition that a lot of people find very positive.
Does that help? We don't think your a bad person, mike, for being christian - just, being christian is no more a guarrantee that you're a better person than being part of any other group.
That said, I'd like to brag a bit - while atheists constitute 10% of American population at large, only 1% of the prison population is atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 06-12-2003 1:32 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 06-12-2003 7:53 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 06-13-2003 1:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 21 of 37 (42705)
06-12-2003 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by mike the wiz
06-12-2003 1:10 PM


Re: This Forum is Biased
Hey wiz,
What was the thread? I ask both for context and because I remember reading it and I thought it was a little different... though maybe it was a different version somewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by mike the wiz, posted 06-12-2003 1:10 PM mike the wiz has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 22 of 37 (42709)
06-12-2003 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NosyNed
06-12-2003 2:01 PM


Re: This Forum is Biased
quote:
In the same vein I object to astrology. Not because it is, in itself, very often harmful but because it allows for a poor quality of rational thinking and decision making. If one can accept this then one can easily move to "alternative medicine" for a cold and from there to dying because of poor decisions based on irrational thinking about appropriate care.
I just thought I'd point out that Kary Mullis, the slightly nutty nobel prize winner and discoverer of the Polymerase Chain Reaction, believes in astrology. If all the evidence he gave for that belief were all true (which I am rather skeptical of), then I wouldn't call it poor quality rational thinking to believe in astrology.
Just an interesting aside. No point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 2:01 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 3:46 PM truthlover has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 23 of 37 (42714)
06-12-2003 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by truthlover
06-12-2003 3:18 PM


Re: This Forum is Biased
I'd have to see the reasoning. Someone in that postition doesn't have time to dig carefully into everything (no one does). There have been a number of fairly careful studies done that concluded there is something to time/date of birth as an influence. However, it seems they all have subtley flawed statistics. Someone might know of those studies but not the controversy over the conclusions.
Also, we all have different aspects to ourselves. No one is always rational, sensible and careful. Like I said, I'd have to see the reasoning behind the conclusions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 06-12-2003 3:18 PM truthlover has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 24 of 37 (42723)
06-12-2003 4:06 PM


Topic drift!
Please confine things to discussion of moderation procedures.
The "Change in Moderation?" topic is also available for this.
Adminnemooseus

Replies to this message:
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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 25 of 37 (42761)
06-12-2003 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Adminnemooseus
06-12-2003 4:06 PM


Re: Topic drift!
I've been in forums where the moderators are total assholes, and believe me, you guys are far better than that. FFG has no basis for calling this forum biased - I've just arrived here, and I find it to be enlightening and enjoyable. The free and fair discussion of ideas in such a volatile area as this is a hard thing to maintain, and you do an excellent job of moderating without stifling anyone - and don't let any close-minded newbie tell you otherwise.
The Rock Hound
------------------
"Science constantly poses questions, where religion can only shout about answers."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-12-2003 4:06 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by NosyNed, posted 06-12-2003 5:33 PM IrishRockhound has not replied
 Message 30 by truthlover, posted 06-13-2003 11:59 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 26 of 37 (42762)
06-12-2003 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by IrishRockhound
06-12-2003 5:30 PM


Re: Topic drift!
Here, here. (even though I just got moderated a little I think )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by IrishRockhound, posted 06-12-2003 5:30 PM IrishRockhound has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 27 of 37 (42793)
06-12-2003 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
06-12-2003 2:58 PM


'Who decides who the "true christians" are?'
God decides as it is suggested in the scripture , (not a qoute)some will claim to know me (Jesus) but i will say i never knew you.
my point is he who hears God's word and does it is a christian.he who rapes and murders and claims to be christian (crusades)is MOST DEFINATELY NOT a christian.
'What gets the goats of Schraf (and I, as well) is christians who come in and say things like "If everybody was christian, no one would rape and kill. Become a christian." '
well i do not say this , all i SUGGEST is that you believe in Jesus because i would like to say hello face to face one day , in heaven.i'm not saying your not going there because i have no right to judge you ,but is my wish such a bad one?
'Does that help? We don't think your a bad person, mike, for being christian - just, being christian is no more a guarrantee that you're a better person than being part of any other group.'
thats fine crash i agree.my motto is:
ashes and diamonds
foe and friend
we 're all worth the same in the end!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 2:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 06-12-2003 9:29 PM mike the wiz has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 37 (42821)
06-12-2003 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
06-12-2003 7:53 PM


all i SUGGEST is that you believe in Jesus because i would like to say hello face to face one day , in heaven.i'm not saying your not going there because i have no right to judge you ,but is my wish such a bad one?
No, wish ahead. I for one won't wish you to become an atheist; it's not an easy choice, and generally one you don't make until you wake up one day and say "You know, I say I believe in god, but I really don't." It's sort of like being gay and coming out of the closet.
It's been a positive thing for me, though. It's really put the things that happen to me in perspective - it's a lot better to ascribe misfortune to the inequity of existence than to wonder why god hates me so much that he allows bad things to happen to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 06-12-2003 7:53 PM mike the wiz has not replied

wj
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 37 (42827)
06-12-2003 11:12 PM


I suspect that FFG has gone off to troll elsewhere. It is no large price to pay for reasonable, thoughtful moderation on this board.
Maybe it was needed to feed some personal persecution complex a la Salty.

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 30 of 37 (42881)
06-13-2003 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by IrishRockhound
06-12-2003 5:30 PM


Re: Topic drift!
quote:
The free and fair discussion of ideas in such a volatile area as this is a hard thing to maintain, and you do an excellent job of moderating without stifling anyone - and don't let any close-minded newbie tell you otherwise.
Eetow! (There's some tribe where that means "that's right" or "amen" or something like that.)
The moderators of this board are exceptional, simple as that.
Shoot, they didn't even complain when Mike the Wiz followed up the Administrator's "stay on topic" post with an off topic post!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by IrishRockhound, posted 06-12-2003 5:30 PM IrishRockhound has not replied

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